Foreign Relations of the United States, 1961–1963, Volume XV, Berlin Crisis, 1962–1963

253. Memorandum of Conversation⁰

LBJ Ranch, Texas, December 28, 1963, 3:15 p.m.

SUBJECT

• East-West Relations (Part 5 of 5)¹

PARTICIPANTS

• [Here follows a lengthy list of participants. President Johnson was accompanied by Secretary Rusk and 10 other officials; Chancellor Erhard by Foreign Minister Schroeder and 12 others.]

President Johnson said that he would like to ask the Chancellor about East-West relations. Does the Chancellor feel that we are doing enough to find solutions to the problems dividing the world?

Chancellor Erhard replied that first of all he believes it is important not to think only in terms of what the West might do. It is necessary also to look at the position of the East and its responses to Western offers. Responses from the East have not so far been encouraging. There have been many Western suggestions but few encouraging responses. It is true that a test ban agreement was reached, and this reduced the threat of a hot war. But there has not been a favorable response in other areas, as for example on observation posts.

The Chancellor said that our views would be more meaningful if we had a more exact evaluation of the Russian position, if we knew how deep the trouble is in the Soviet Union. The Chancellor said that the FRG would discuss this subject in the Ambassadorial Group.

The President said that he interpreted the Chancellor’s remarks as indicating the view that the Soviets may be in pretty serious trouble. The Chancellor said that he thinks they are, but that he doubted the Soviets have reached a stage of being willing to change their policies in any visible way. The Soviets remain concerned about their prestige, as dictatorships are more than democracies.

The Chancellor said that he was favorable to the proposed wheat sales to the Soviet Union. He does not believe this is a point on which the West should be tough. The Chancellor noted that the German people would have starved in the period after World War II had it not been for US aid.

The President asked whether the FRG was not selling flour to the Soviet Union. The Chancellor said this was true.

The Chancellor commented that he felt the recent autobahn incidents had been no accident. The Chancellor then reiterated his view that we should not always be thinking in terms of what we should do; we should also look at the attitude of the other side.

The Chancellor commented that sometimes these subjects can get hot. The Christmas pass issue has dynamite in it even though it looks harmless. The East Germans and Soviets are pressing their three-state theory. The question is arising as to who speaks for Berlin. The FRG position up to now has been that the Berlin Senat and the Federal Government will jointly carry out discussions and any arrangements entered into.

The meeting ended at 5:15 p.m.

0. Source: Department of State, Presidential Memoranda of Conversation: Lot 64 D 149. Confidential. Drafted and initialed by Finn, approved by the White House on January 8, 1964, and by S and U on January 17.
1. Part 1 on the Kennedy Round is printed in vol. XIII, Document 89. Parts 2–4, which summarized the discussion on European political unity, the MLF, and aid to less-developed countries, are in Department of State, Conference Files: Lot 66 D 110, CF 2354.