112. Memorandum of Conversation Between Secretary of the Interior Udall and Chairman Khrushchev0
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K: I know Nixon and Eisenhower, and I must say that Kennedy is better in this respect. As a President he has understanding, but what he does not yet have is courage—courage to solve the German question. If he resolves this problem, he will rise to the heights. But he is faced with [Page 309] the necessity of solving it. Because the German situation is no longer tolerable. A treaty will inevitably be signed. If we and the President can agree, then there will be great opportunities for cooperation in science, technology, and outer space. Without a solution to this problem, our relations will continue to be cancerous and exacerbated. So we will help him solve the problem. We will put him in a situation where it is necessary to solve it. We will give him a choice—go to war, or sign a peace treaty. We will not allow your troops to be in Berlin. We will permit access to West Berlin for economic or commercial purposes, but not for military purposes. Everybody is saying nowadays that there will be a war. I don’t agree. Sensible people won’t start a war. What is Berlin to the United States? And a war could easily began there—if someone struck a blow at us, we would strike back. Do you need Berlin? Like hell you need it. Nor do we need it. But the President is not in a position to come to agreement. I’m telling you this off the record—I don’t want to hurt your chances in the November elections. The President is boxed in—he can’t move. To sum it up, Congress won’t let him come to terms. If he had support in Congress, he could come to terms. But as it now stands, if the two of us made an agreement, Congress would veto it. You remember when Nixon came here, and Congress had just declared Captive Nations Week. I asked him, “Was that very smart?” He said, “I never would have done such a thing myself, but I can’t vouch for fools in the Congress.” I’m telling you this just between you and me. But you have many such fools in Congress.
U: There are some who are demagogues in the negative sense.
K: They should be gotten rid of. And so—we’ll sign a peace treaty. If any lunatics in your country want war, Western Europe will hold them back. Except for Adenauer and DeGaulle—those two have some unusual ideas of their own. But they will get wise in a hurry. War in this day and age means no Paris and no France, all in the space of an hour. It’s been a long time since you could spank us like a little boy—now we can swat your ass. So let’s not talk about force. We’re equally strong. You want Berlin. Access to it goes through East Germany. We have the advantage. If you want to do anything, you have to start a war. And nowadays that course is insanity. We ourselves will not start a war. We don’t need one, nor do you. The economy of your country is more developed than ours, but ours will be as strong as yours one day. So, let us have peaceful competition. But we can have peace and come to agreement sooner once the Berlin issue is eliminated. Out of respect for your President we won’t do anything until November. If it depends on us, there will be no war. I think the reply of the President to our note on the U-2 was satisfactory from this standpoint.
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[Page 310]U: Mr. Chairman, I want to thank you for the opportunity to meet with you. I will respect your request to keep these remarks off the record, and will convey your messages to President Kennedy.
K: Yes—tell the press we talked about electric power plants.
U: Yes, I would like to tell them of our discussion of power stations and water development. On Berlin, the President has made his position very clear. He shares your views about the insanity, the suicide of nuclear war. He is a strong leader—a courageous man, a man of steel, just as you are. You, the President, and I myself were all participants in the last World War. The President respects your problems and your position, and you should attempt to understand his position on this grave question. I am sure the President has no greater ambition than to solve the Berlin problem peacefully, and to put an end to nuclear weapons testing, which has been the topic of discussion at Geneva. This is a time of dangers, and he will always do his best to find peaceful solutions to world problems.
K: We wish him success. We will freeze the Berlin question until November. Then he and I will continue our dialogue. I don’t know what its outcome will be, but we will sign a peace treaty with Germany. Then we shall see whether you bring us to the brink of war. It takes two to jump at the brink; one person can’t jump alone—and you have many on your side who must jump together (motioning with his hands). I personally do not want to jump. Please give my best personal regards to the President, his family, and his daughter from me and my wife.
- Source: Department of State, Presidential Correspondence: Lot 77 D 163. Secret. Drafted by the U.S. interpreter, Kamman, with additions and corrections by Udall, who visited the Soviet Union for 11 days beginning August 29. A summary of the conversation, transmitted in telegram 616 from Moscow, September 7 (ibid., Central Files, 033.1100–UD/9–762), is printed in vol. V, Document 139.↩