Foreign Relations of the United States, 1981–1988, Volume IV, Soviet Union, January 1983–March 1985

205. Memorandum From Secretary of State Shultz to President Reagan¹

Washington, March 30, 1984

SUBJECT

• Conversations with Dobrynin and his Deputy

Over lunch the past two days, Art Hartman and Rick Burt have separately had constructive conversations with Ambassador Dobrynin and his Deputy Sokolov. The talks will provide a good basis for my meeting with Dobrynin on Monday² (assuming his swollen foot has healed sufficiently for him to come to the Department) and for Art’s meeting with Gromyko on Tuesday. The main content of the conversations is given below.

Treatment of Scowcroft: Dobrynin told Art that Moscow had thought our Scowcroft effort was a trick. The people there (read Gromyko) are “very sensitive” about these things, he said, and we should have taken time to better prepare the way. Art responded that we had taken the time, that he had discussed the trip with Dobrynin and had gone over it in detail with Gromyko.³ He added that the Soviets had missed an important opportunity to talk with Scowcroft. Dobrynin confirmed that the offer of a Deputy Foreign Minister was a deliberate action to respond to a U.S. “trick”.

U.S.-Soviet Atmospherics: Art complained about the message the Soviets are passing out in Moscow, noting that while Dobrynin says they want to move ahead, his people in Moscow are telling everyone there is no hope in dealing with the Administration. Dobrynin said this had not come from official Soviets, “only Arbatov, who has non-governmental duties”. Art noted that Arbatov, Falin, and others had turned off an important group of Americans. Dobrynin promised to report Art’s complaints about the treatment of the Dartmouth group to Moscow. Art also asked why people were being told in Moscow that U.S. efforts were merely election-year politics. Dobrynin said that “maybe this was so, but why wait?”, adding that over the years they have learned that regardless of the promises made in Presidential campaigns, once in office the foreign policy approach remains essentially the same.

START/INF: When Dobrynin raised next steps in our dialogue, Art noted that we have put a full agenda on the table, but the Soviet side has not been very responsive. He noted that our START ideas put forward in September had considerable promise and should be given careful study. Dobrynin said they had not found them all that interesting. Art also told Dobrynin the present Soviet position on INF is hopeless and we are waiting for them to come forward with a more reasonable position.

TTBT: When Art mentioned TTBT, Dobrynin commented that if the U.S. could do something in this area (even if we make an effort on the Hill and it fails), it would make an important impression on Moscow. Rick was specifically invited to lunch by Sokolov to discuss TTBT.⁴ During their conversation, Rick noted the impasse created by the Soviet position against renegotiation and our need to resolve political and verification problems. Sokolov suggested the Soviets might agree to a separate understanding on verification to be negotiated and made public following U.S. ratification of the TTBT. Rick said any agreement would have to be reached beforehand so that it would form part of our rationale for asking the Senate to ratify the agreement. Sokolov said this might be possible if the U.S. side agreed not to make public either the separate agreement or the fact it was being negotiated until the time the President announced he was seeking ratification.

CTB: Both Dobrynin and Sokolov asked about CTB and were told there was no chance to move forward on this now. They suggested we look closely at TTBT instead.

Outer Space: Both Soviet diplomats also said Moscow was very concerned about outer space and hoped we could move to negotiations on ASAT. Art pointed Dobrynin to your last letter to Chernenko.⁵ Dobrynin said they know their ASAT technology is poor and assume ours is great. We must see if it can be kept under control now, he said, because if it is not, the Soviet side will do all it can to catch up. Sokolov told Rick Moscow is willing to take all necessary steps to dismantle their ASAT system as part of an agreement to ban all such systems. Rick said we wanted to know what steps they would be willing to take that would allow us to verify their system had been dismantled. Sokolov said he would get back to us on this subject.

CDE: Sokolov said that in response to our complaints, they had decided to allow their Ambassador in Stockholm to have more leeway in discussions with Jim Goodby at CDE. Rick said we noted the change and, as a result, Goodby had invited their man to Washington for further discussions.⁶ Sokolov commented that the Soviets were afraid we would exploit such a visit to show the world it was “business as usual” between us. Rick suggested we discuss the public rationale beforehand and Sokolov seemed interested. Dobrynin asked Art about our position on their Non-Use-Of-Force proposal at Stockholm, adding that they know we are not interested No-First-Use of Nuclear Weapons. Art reminded Dobrynin that we also have some things on the table there (our transparency measures) that we want.

Other Arms Control: When Art noted that we will put forward our CW treaty soon, Dobrynin indicated he knew we would not reach an agreement on this issue, but he praised the effort nevertheless. They agreed that the Hotline issue is going well and that we should be able to get an agreement in the next round.

Bilateral Issues: Both Soviets were upbeat on moving forward on the bilateral issues. Dobrynin was optimistic on the maritime boundary negotiations. He confirmed that the Soviets are ready to move ahead on an exchanges agreement “as soon as you are”. He said they were also interested in moving on the Consulates. In this connection, Dobrynin commented that they know full well we want these agreements to get deeper into Soviet society, but that on their side they need the foreign exchange from cultural groups and he needs a Consulate in New York. Rick asked Sokolov about the apparent Soviet effort to link the Aeroflot issue with opening of the Consulates. When Sokolov suggested a tie to an exchanges agreement instead, Rick told him such linkages sounded like a runaround to us and that each issue should be negotiated on its merits. Sokolov appeared to accept this. Rick also emphasized the need for them to take constructive steps in Montreal on the technical measures we have discussed to increase the safety of the Northern Pacific airways.

Regional Issues: Although regional issues were not discussed at any length, Dobrynin did indicate to Art the strong interest they had in engaging us more deeply on the trouble spots around the world. He mentioned the Middle East in particular in this regard, bring up Gromyko’s pet project for an international conference. Art said they should be able to do better than that old proposal.

1. Source: Reagan Library, Jack Matlock Files, USSR Subject File, US-USSR Relations (March 1984) 3/3. Secret; Sensitive. Reagan initialed this memorandum, indicating he saw it. In a March 28 Information Memorandum, Burt briefed Shultz on Hartman’s meeting with Dobrynin earlier that day. Shultz’s handwritten note in the margin instructed Burt to “turn into a memo I can hand to the President on Friday. GPS.” (Reagan Library, George Shultz Papers, Box 2C, 1984 Soviet Union, March).
2. Monday, April 2. For a record of this meeting, see Document 209.
3. See Document 193.
4. According to telegram 92817 to Moscow, March 30, Burt met Sokolov for lunch at the Soviet Embassy, where they discussed TTBT, CTB, space arms control, CDE, and bilateral issues. (Department of State, Central Foreign Policy File, Electronic Telegrams, N840005–0227)
5. See Document 190.
6. In an April 28 privacy channel telegram from Goodby in Moscow to Shultz, Goodby reported: “In this message I forward my personal impressions of the discussions here during the past days. I spoke along the lines we agreed in Washington. Grinevski did not tip his hand very much, but evidently the Soviets are prepared to negotiate some concrete confidence building measures in the context of an understanding on reciprocal assurances against the use of force. The outlook is for hard sledding, however. Grinevski had problems with our proposals on exchange of information and on notifications of mobilization activities. Our key concept of notifying ‘out of garrison activities’ also seemed to trouble him. On the other hand, he stipulated that the Soviets were prepared to negotiate agreements for advance notification of certain military activities above a specified numerical level (which he declined to identify), invitations of observers to such activities, and some form of verification.” (Department of State, Executive Secretariat, S/S, Sensitive and Super Sensitive Documents, Lot 92D52, April 1–30, 1984, Super Sensitive Documents)