Foreign Relations of the United States, 1977–1980, Volume XX, Eastern Europe

123. Telegram From the Embassy in the German Democratic Republic to the Department of State and Multiple Diplomatic Posts¹

East Berlin, October 7, 1978, 1421Z

6566. Subject: Visit of Assistant Secretary Derian to East Berlin: Meeting With Deputy Foreign Minister Nier. Geneva Pass Assistant Secretary Derian.

1. Summary: Assistant Secretary Derian’s October 6 meeting with GDR Deputy Foreign Minister Nier fell into three categories: (1) a general discussion of US and GDR policy approaches to human rights; (2) US–GDR relations, with Nier providing some answers to issues raised by Ambassador in September 19 meeting with GDR Foreign Minister Fischer, and (3) a brief discussion of preparations for 1980 Madrid CSCE meeting. On human rights, Assistant Secretary Derian outlined to Nier the domestic basis and reasons for the importance of human rights in US foreign policy; she noted it was not directed against any government or form of government and that it was not intended to interfere with detente. It should be seen as an effort to discuss humanitarian problems rationally. Nier welcomed Ms. Derian’s visit, expressed the GDR’s hope for better US–GDR relations, and stated that, with respect to human rights, the yardstick for measuring performance must be determined in each country. On US–GDR bilateral relations, Nier said (1) the GDR would receive Congressman English to discuss narcotics issues, (2) preparations were underway to hold “Reflections USA” in Leipzig in the fall of ’79 and that they would look favorably on a 1980 showing at the Berlin TV tower, (3) the GDR would be prepared to hold claims discussions next January–February, and (4) the GDR had gone as far as it could on the Consular Convention but would look at any new US counterproposals. The Ambassador noted that Ms. Derian’s visit was an expression of US interest in developing better relations and welcomed Nier’s remarks on specific items of US–GDR business. Nier, in conclusion, referred to the “constructive atmosphere” which had prevailed during the talks and expressed the hope Ms. Derian could come back to Berlin. We think Asst Sec Derian’s visit was positive in tone and content, and useful to both sides. End summary.

2. Asst Sec Derian, accompanied by the Ambassador, DCM, Political Section Chief and Staff Assistant Heaphy, met with Deputy Foreign Minister Nier, Krabatsch and Geyer at the MFA October 6 for approximately 1½ hours.

3. Nier opened the meeting by welcoming Ms. Derian to Berlin and stating that such meetings could contribute to promoting and developing bilateral relations. He said the GDR attaches great importance to developing relations with the US; in that connection he noted with satisfaction President Carter’s comments about the US interests in developing relations during the presentation of credentials by Ambassador Grunert on October 2.² We have made progress in past years, Nier stated, but not all possibilities in the bilateral field have been exhausted. The development of US–GDR relations will contribute to detente and peace and security in Europe.

4. Ms. Derian replied, stating that the US shared many of these same values—we are making progress in the development of our relations and noted President Carter’s expressed interest in developing these relations. Ms. Derian said that she had a new task to fulfill in the State Department in her present capacity; there are many misunderstandings about this US human rights policy. She said that it might be well to note first of all what US human rights policy does not mean: It is not directed at any government or type of government. We are concerned with human rights because the United States is a signatory of the UN Charter, the Declaration of Human Rights, and the Helsinki Final Act, and because American values must be reflected in US foreign policy.

5. Ms. Derian stated that we have held discussions with all countries [with] which we have diplomatic relations, such talks were always held in the strictest confidence. Only in one instance had there been a breach of confidence, and that had not come from the US side. Ms. Derian stated that the US recognizes that the issues involved are delicate and complex, there will always be difficulties. She noted that the US has problems at home, citing such examples as unemployment, appearance of injustice (Wilmington Ten). She stated that she would be interested in any GDR views on the situation in the US. The US human rights policy stems from the American people and it is vitally important to have a clear understanding in all countries of our basic policy. This policy is complex in application. The central theme is simple: it is based on honest humanitarian concerns; it is just what it claims to be. It is not an interference with detente and we have no intention of misusing this policy.

6. Turning to US–GDR bilateral relations, Asst Sec Derian stated that we have a hopeful feeling and that we share Nier’s expressed views. She noted developments in the cultural field, meetings between Foreign Minister Fischer and Secretary Vance, and the recent meeting between President Carter and Ambassador Grunert. Ms. Derian stated that she is pleased with the progress on divided families, adding we need to speed up the process so that in emergency cases these can be resolved more quickly.

7. Nier expressed thanks for Ms. Derian’s comments. He stated that when the representatives of two governments sit at the same table, they must operate on the basis of principles which govern the relations between governments. One must distinguish in this connection between internal questions and international questions. The Helsinki Final Act constitutes an important basis for these relations: it contains a number of norms which guide relations between nations with different social systems, including respect for the sovereignty of nations and non-interference, including in the matter of human rights. The GDR considers the Final Act as a unified whole, and treats it as such. The aims and results of the Final Act should be to ensure peace and detente and to guarantee security of nations. The Final Act must be treated as a whole and as the basis for bilateral relations.

8. Nier stated that human rights are embodied in the laws and other documents of the GDR. The principal human right is the right to peace. If peace is not secured, then the other rights have no value. Such questions as the right to work, equality of women, minority rights are of course important in daily life. “Some circles,” Nier continued, argue that the US has declared human rights as the only guideline for its foreign policy without taking other factors into consideration. This could result in one country defining what is just and unjust. That is a matter for each nation’s own decision. As soon as it relates to relations between two countries, then the suspicion will be raised that you are attempting to interfere in the internal affairs of other countries, and this is not in the spirit of the Final Act. This could only lead to a situation which would threaten detente. The yardstick for measuring performance must be determined in each country. An essential element of human rights is peaceful coexistence among nations.

9. Nier stated that the GDR’s relations with other countries does not depend on whether there is unemployment in the other country or whether someone has been convicted. That does not mean, he said, that the GDR is indifferent to such problems, only that it is an internal matter and intervention on such matters is inadmissable. The situation is different of course, he continued, in cases where there are massive violations of human rights such as Chile, Nicaragua, South Africa, and other countries (Ms. Derian added Argentina to the list), and these cases violate concrete provisions of the UN Charter, the Human Rights Declaration and other documents, and it is a vital concern for other nations to take joint actions to insure that human rights are protected.

10. Ms. Derian stated that she finds the remarks of Mr. Nier very interesting. On the question of peace, she stated that technology had made our world very small and that we must all strive for peace. We need good communications and understanding among nations and that is why we are pleased to be able to discuss an important aspect of our policy, one about which there is misunderstanding. Ms. Derian stated that human rights is not the only policy of the United States, it would be naive and arrogant if a country should base its policy on a single concept. It would also be arrogant for a nation to believe that it alone had the knowledge and ability to discuss issues relating to human rights. That would mean that such a country had no right at all. Such a policy would be suspect and dangerous. The world has grown so small, people move so much today and ideas flow from one country to another, that all nations are bound together through trade, marriage, etc. We must consequently talk about human problems as well as those relating to commercial, political and military issues. We now have the framework in which we can discuss these problems without anger or rancor.

11. Nier replied that he could agree with many of the points Ms. Derian had made, it is a small world and because of technological, economic and other developments, countries cannot exist by themselves and cooperation is necessary. Just because of the close interconnection of nations, it is especially important to exercise the utmost caution in relations among peoples. It is necessary to take into consideration national differences and the rules that govern relations between governments and peoples. We must be able to discuss these points without giving offense to one another. We wish to be able to live with nations with different systems. So long as there are nations with different systems, we must try to live with one another.

12. Ms. Derian replied that this had nothing to do with human rights: The GDR has its system, the US its own. Nier responded that it is not sufficient only to take note of different systems but also to respect them. We must take into account that each nation has a right to self-determination.

13. Ms. Derian noted that in preparing to come to East Berlin, she had been informed that the constitutions of the US and the GDR contain many of the same provisions. She noted that she had become somewhat of an expert on aspects of the Argentine constitution and this provides for more rights than the constitution of either the GDR or the US. Nier observed that there is a difference between a constitution reality. Ms. Derian continued that the point is all govts recognize the need for these statements.

14. Ms. Derian referred to Nier’s distinction between internal matters and external matters and gave the example of a neighborhood in which everyone kept a neat garden in front of their house. She stated that if someone wanted to keep goats in their garden, or dump their garbage there, the people in the neighborhood would have to get together and talk about the problem peacefully. Nier replied that relations between nations are not the same as relations among neighbors. However, accepting Ms. Derian’s vivid example, Nier said that the GDR tries to keep its own garden neat, but that if its neighbor wants to raise goats in his garden or dump garbage in it, that is none of the GDR’s business. Ms. Derian said that he should know that goats will go into the next garden to which Nier replied then they would have to build a wall.

15. Nier at this stage changed the subject and said he would like to raise some bilateral issues in connection with some questions raised by the Ambassador in his September 19 meeting with Foreign Minister Fischer.³ Ms. Derian might also find his comments of interest: Narcotics problems—Nier stated that the GDR has no narcotics problem of its own and it was up to the US to judge whether it had one. He stated that the GDR is ready to cooperate in this area and is prepared to exchange information. Experts in the Ministry of Health are prepared to discuss these matters with US experts. Ms. Derian noted that Congressman English was planning to visit East Berlin to discuss these matters.⁴ Nier replied that his government had nothing against this. Consular Convention—Nier stated that he would only like to recall the remarks Foreign Minister Fischer had made to the Ambassador and that Grunert had made to President Carter on this question: The GDR is in favor of concluding a Consular Convention with the US. The GDR’s interest and willingness to sign such an agreement has been demonstrated through the several compromise proposals that it had made. “We have gone to the limit of what is possible.” In order for there to be any progress, Nier stated, we should not have proposals merely turned down with no counterproposals. “If the US side has any proposals of its own, we are prepared to consider them.”⁵ Claims—Nier began by noting that it was not the GDR’s fault that it had taken 30 years from the end of WWII to begin discussing these problems. The GDR experts had considered this matter, he continued, and Professor Kleier, the Chief of the Office for the Protection of Property, is prepared to continue the talks with US experts at the end of January or the beginning of February 1979. Culture—Nier stated that cultural relations between the US and GDR had developed favorably. Ms. Derian noted the beauty of the Dresden exhibit. Nier replied that the GDR could not send such an exhibit each year but was pleased at the good reception the exhibit had had. Nier noted that the Ambassador had made several suggestions for cultural activities. He agreed to the performances of the Jubilee Singers for May 1979 and also at the Dresden Music Festival and in Karl Marx Stadt. He said preparation was underway for the exhibition of “Reflections USA” in Leipzig in the fall of 1979 and that they would view “positively” having “Reflections” exhibited at the TV Tower in Berlin in 1980 but that they needed detailed proposals. In conclusion, he said that there are new possibilities for developing relations between the GDR and the US.

16. The Ambassador stated that the presence of Asst Sec Derian was an indication of our interest in developing better understanding and cooperation with the GDR in a bilateral and in a CSCE context. He stated that such consultations can lead to better understanding, point up problems, identify common interest which can contribute to bilateral cooperation, peace and security. Ambassador expressed appreciation for the responses to questions he had raised with Foreign Minister Fischer. He noted in particular the offer of cooperation in narcotics control, the importance of this issue had been highlighted by the fact that the President had raised it during the presentation of credentials of Ambassador Grunert. We are pleased about GDR willingness to receive Congressman English as this could contribute to solving the drug problem and to development of bilateral relations as well. On the Consular Convention question, the Ambassador acknowledged that this is one of the unresolved issues impeding the normalization of relations. He said the US appreciates the GDR’s positive approach to this problem and stated that the US would continue to study the problem and would “go back to the drawing board.” He added that with good will and determination it should be possible to resolve the nationality question, preferably without referring to it at all in any exchange of letters.

17. The Ambassador stated that the claims issues are important to us and their solution would contribute to bilateral relations. The US had positively assessed the March meeting of experts, the Foreign Claims Settlement Commission is working within a short time frame and negotiations should start in 1980. Ambassador said that he would convey the offer of a meeting to hold talks to authorities in Washington but, as an informal comment, expressed the hope that these talks could be held earlier. The Ambassador agreed that bilateral cultural relations had broadened and deepened, and he expressed appreciation for the fact that the Jubilee Singers would be able to perform in May next year. He expressed the hope that the photographic exhibit, “Reflections, USA” could be held in the Berlin TV Tower as well.

18. Nier said that he wanted to make a comment in the support of frankness that had so far prevailed. He stated that one must not give an opportunity to the mass media to poison the “constructive atmosphere” which had prevailed during the talks. This would not serve either detente or the solution of problems. Nier noted that there had been some speculation in the mass media and that the GDR had had experience with abuse of this nature. He stated that he had no objection to informing the media of the fact that the US and the GDR had discussed matters of mutual interest. Ms. Derian stated that if she is obliged to make any statement to the press at all, it is to the effect that she had had frank discussions on matters of mutual interest. Ms. Derian stated that as we prepare for the Madrid Conference, we must talk and that such discussions can ease tensions. Nier replied that the GDR was prepared to contribute to the preparations and hopes to find useful ways to develop cooperation among nations. He noted that he had just returned from Madrid and the Spanish Government had already started its preparations for the conference. In conclusion, Deputy Foreign Minister Nier expressed the hope that Assist Sec Derian could come back to Berlin when the weather was better.

19. Cable has been cleared in draft by Ms. Derian.

Bolen

1. Source: National Archives, RG 59, Central Foreign Policy File, D780411–0170. Confidential; Immediate. Sent to Warsaw, Belgrade, Bonn, Bucharest, Budapest, Geneva, London, Moscow, Paris, Prague, Sofia, West Berlin, and USNATO.
2. After Grunert presented his credentials on October 2 at the White House, Carter expressed his support for finalizing a Consular Convention and with the German Democratic Republic and mentioned the issue of the flow of narcotics from East Berlin to the West, stressing his interest in cooperating on the issue. (Telegram 250621 to East Berlin, October 2; National Archives, RG 59, Central Foreign Policy File, D780403–0504)
3. In telegram 6144 from East Berlin, September 20, Bolen reported that he had advised Fischer of White House and congressional interest in drug trafficking from East Berlin. Other issues discussed included cultural exchanges, the visit of Assistant Secretary Derian, the Consular Convention, trade, and the settlement of claims. (National Archives, RG 59, Central Foreign Policy File, D780390–0160)
4. During his November 14 visit to East Berlin, English stressed the importance Congress and the administration placed on stopping drug trafficking and pressed the East Germans on establishing an informal information exchange on known traffickers. (Telegram 7417 from East Berlin, November 17; National Archives, RG 59, Central Foreign Policy File, D780473–0704)
5. Meeting with East German officials in East Berlin on June 16, Woessner stressed that including a definition of nationality in the Consular Convention “caused us difficulties not only in and of itself, but also because of the question it raised concerning Berlin.” The East Germans responded that a Consular Convention could only be signed when “both parties recognized that both have citizens and could represent their interests.” (National Archives, RG 59, Bureau of Intelligence and Research, Office of Analysis for the Commonwealth and Eastern Europe, Lot 92D404, Office Subject Files, 1967–1985, Box 8, GDR–US (Political) 1977–1978)