Foreign Relations of the United States, 1964–1968, Volume XVII, Eastern Europe

33. Memorandum of Conversation¹

Sofia, November 2, 1966, 4 p.m.

PARTICIPANTS

• Todor Zhivkov, Chairman of the Council of Ministers
• Gero Grozev, First Deputy Minister of Foreign Affairs
• John M. McSweeney, Chief of Mission
• Hans N. Tuch, Deputy Chief of Mission
• Veselin Izmirliev, Interpreter

Minister McSweeney was making his initial call on Chairman Zhivkov.

After Minister McSweeney had expressed his pleasure at being in Bulgaria and meeting the Prime Minister, he stated that he had had conversations with Bulgarian Minister Gerasimov before he left Washington and, after his arrival here, with Foreign Minister Bashev and with Chairman Traykov upon the presentation of credentials.² He was pleased that Chairman Traykov had made the statement that Bulgaria was ready to do what it can to improve relations between the two countries within the framework of the present situation.

Minister McSweeney noted that he and Minister Gerasimov had found they were in general agreement that there were two main areas in our bilateral relations where some concrete progress had been made and can be made in the future. The first was in the field of trade. He felt that it would not be useful on this occasion to delve into the history of our trade relations, the historical background of the question the Bulgarians referred to as “discrimination” in trade, nor into the details of our legislative processes. He merely wanted to mention those things that had been done which he felt would have a favorable impact on our trade relations.

First was the President’s proposal of the East-West Trade Bill to the Congress which would give him the discretionary authority to extend MFN to all the countries of Eastern Europe. This bill was not considered in the Congress at the last session, but it will be introduced for consideration in the next session. Minister McSweeney recalled that Senator Magnuson, during his conversation with the Prime Minister,³ had voiced his strong support for this bill. Secondly, the US had extended a $10 million CCC credit for Bulgarian purchases of feed grains. Thirdly, the President had made an important speech on October 7, 1966, which concerned itself with relations with Eastern Europe in which he again voiced his desire to improve these relations.⁴ Toward that end the Commerce Department had removed some 400 items from the list of strategic commodities for which licenses had previously to be obtained; and the President, with the support of the Congress, extended Ex-Im Bank guarantees to those countries in Eastern Europe which had not had these previously. Further he had expressed his determination to press for enactment of the East-West trade legislation. Minister McSweeney said these are facts which, if they do not give all that one might want to improve our trade relations, were certainly concrete indications of the direction in which the US is moving.

The second broad area, Minister McSweeney stated, in which he thought we could expand our mutual relationship was in cultural exchanges—the exchange of people, information and ideas in order to spread the knowledge of our respective countries and people. He was pleased to note, Minister McSweeney continued, that there had also been some progress in exchanges in both directions to which the GOB had contributed. Minister McSweeney mentioned the Electric Power Delegation,⁵ the visit of Senator Magnuson, the visit of the US Trade Delegation,⁶ US participation in the Plovdiv Fair and Bulgarian assistance in obtaining exit visas for a number of hardship cases as evidence of this forward movement. He stated that he did not want to go into detail, that he hoped to have discussions on various matters with the respective officials of the Bulgarian Government, that he hoped to contribute to progress in our bilateral relations, and that he hoped for Chairman Zhivkov’s support.

Prime Minister Zhivkov first proposed a toast wishing the Minister a successful mission in Bulgaria. He stated that the GOB understands the steps that have been taken so far and that the GOB will respond positively to any American initiative. He felt, however, that US-Bulgarian relations were now in a cul-de-sac, that they were not developing properly but marking time. He stated that Bulgaria had developed its relations with Britain, France, Italy, Japan and Austria but not with the US. He asked who was responsible for this situation—the United States or Bulgaria? He stated that perhaps both sides were responsible, and that both sides would nave to make mutual concessions with the aim of finding solutions to their problems. He said that he is not an optimist but a “rough realist” and that perhaps for this reason he was ill-chosen to be a Prime Minister. However, he stated, the Minister can count on his and his Government’s support in any effort to improve bilateral relations.

Zhivkov stated that on the subject of Vietnam, Bulgaria would continue to voice its position that the United States is committing aggression against a fraternal socialist country. Bulgaria would state this position at the upcoming Party Congress and on other appropriate occasions, but, Zhivkov continued, Bulgaria takes account of the “actual situation” and will respond positively to any initiatives from the US in the bilateral field. He stated that he had spoken with many people inside and outside of Bulgaria and he follows the area of foreign relations closely. He reiterated that any positive steps by the US will be welcome and will be reciprocated by Bulgaria. He cautioned, however, that if both sides were to view the future through “rose-colored glasses,” they would fail to improve relations. They must view the relationship by considering concrete things—“what can be done.” He stated that he had a mandate both from the Central Committee of the BCP and the Government to respond to US initiatives and he would do so immediately. He then asked what can we do concretely right away? Can the US extend credits?

Minister McSweeney stated that Bulgaria had an outstanding credit line of $10 million for feed grains right now and that Ex-Im Bank guarantees also were available now for all countries in Eastern Europe. Prime Minister Zhivkov asked whether Bulgaria could get immediate credit to buy either complete plants or to engage in a barter deal whereby they would purchase plants or equipment and pay in kind. He stated that in matters like this MFN is not of primary importance to Bulgaria but that he is interested in reaching concrete decisions.

Minister McSweeney replied that there recently had been a number of representatives of leading New York banks in Sofia who had offered to extend credit lines. This was an indication of the American private sector’s belief that things were moving forward. He continued by saying that we would probably have to start on a small scale since our problems in this field are of long standing, but that the US is prepared to consider proposals as they come up.

On the subject of Vietnam, Minster McSweeney stated, our views are obviously different, and he would not try to convince Chairman Zhivkov at the present meeting that the US is right. He expected the GOB to continue to express its views on the subject. And he realized that the Chairman is well informed about international developments, but he wanted to recommend a careful reading of the communiqué of the Manila Conference.⁷ It had been previously suggested that the American Government had been seeking something for itself in Vietnam. The communiqué shows clearly that the US wants to settle the problem and, as a practical step, is prepared to evacuate its military personnel within six months if the other side does the same. Minister McSweeney stated that to the extent that Chairman Zhivkov can use his influence to have the other side look at this proposal seriously, this would help efforts to achieve peace. Minister McSweeney emphasized that our readiness to withdraw is a fact. Mutual withdrawal can lead to a reduction in the war and make a political solution possible.

Chairman Zhivkov stated he wanted to emphasize that Bulgaria wishes to maintain normal relations—it is a small country, but that it has an active foreign and internal policy. He stated that it was in the mutual interest of both countries to have normal relations. He believed that the main question is to end “discrimination” starting with the economic field, and that after such “discrimination” had ended, both countries could turn to other sectors. He stated again that Bulgaria would welcome any steps on the part of the US to improve relations and that his Government would respond positively. But, he continued, the fact that the Department of State carries out “discrimination” against Bulgaria in trade creates major difficulties. He said that he cannot understand how cultural relations can be developed unless a solution is found to the problem of economic relations. He cited as an example that Bulgaria has more economic relations with Spain than with the US in spite of the character of the Spanish regime. He said that the US-Bulgarian dialogue had always revolved around the same problems ever since he became Prime Minister. “Discrimination” prevents establishing normal relations and interferes with normal contacts between Bulgarian and US officials. Bulgaria, he said, had no problems with France in spite of the fact that President DeGaulle’s view of the world is not its own. Bulgaria has wide trade with West Germany although the two countries constantly insulted each other. He said that Bulgaria does not worry about VOA making propaganda threats. The main problem is the economic problem.

On the subject of Vietnam, Chairman Zhivkov continued, the question is very complicated. US bombardment must be stopped and then both sides can proceed to negotiations. He stated that nobody told him to say this, but he wanted to say anyway that the US should stop bombing and that would be the way to bring about negotiations. If the Vietnam conflict were to grow it would be a terrible business, he continued. He had just returned from the Soviet Union where he had been shown the latest Soviet weapons and he had been told that US weapons and Soviet weapons were very similar in their characteristics and destructive capability. He said that he knew what US weapons could do and what Soviet weapons could do, and that if they were to come into contact with each other a catastrophe would result. He said that this is absurd and reiterated that US should stop its bombing whereafter talks could start.

Minister McSweeney stated that the US had stopped bombing twice, but there had been no response from the other side. He said that a bomb is a bomb whether it is placed under a railroad tie or dropped from the sky. He stated that if there were some indication from the other side that it is prepared to reciprocate, something could be accomplished immediately. He reiterated that there is no one who wants to get the Vietnam conflict ended more than the US.

Chairman Zhivkov replied that US propaganda states that North Vietnam has sent troops to the South. “It is nothing like this,” he insisted. Bulgaria had recently had a delegation in North Vietnam of which Mr. Grozev had been a member. No North Vietnamese troops have been sent to South Vietnam, he said. North Vietnam does give material assistance to the South Vietnamese guerrilla forces, but this is a guerrilla war. As evidence that there are no North Vietnamese units in South Vietnam and that this is merely a guerrilla war, he cited the fact that not one town had been taken by North Vietnamese troops in the South.

Minister McSweeney opined that this may either be a matter of tactics or a measure of lack of success of the North Vietnamese troops. He said that many North Vietnamese prisoners in camps in South Vietnam are good evidence of North Vietnamese direct participation. Chairman Zhivkov then acknowledged that there may be individual North Vietnamese helping in South Vietnam, but reasserted there are no military units. But, he continued, it is neither his mandate nor the Minister’s mission to discuss this problem today.

Minister McSweeney stated that during his tour of duty with the Strategic Air Command over two years ago he also had seen information about US and Soviet weapons similar to that which Chairman Zhivkov had evidently seen in the USSR. He stated that the US knows the dangers of nuclear war full well and that therefore it wanted to see the Vietnam problem resolved as quickly as possible.

On that note the conversation ended with repeated expressions of mutual goodwill.

The conversation lasted approximately 45 minutes and was conducted in a cordial and relaxed manner.

1. Source: Department of State, Central Files, POL BUL–US. Limited Official Use. Drafted by Tuch and McSweeney. Transmitted as Enclosure 1 to airgram A–168 from Sofia, November 8. The meeting was held in Zhivkov’s office. Davis left post on May 20, 1966, and President Johnson nominated John M. McSweeney as Minister to Bulgaria on September 16. He presented his credentials on October 26. The Legation in Sofia was raised to Embassy status on November 28; McSweeney was promoted to Ambassador on April 5, 1967.
2. Telegram 441 from Sofia, October 10, reported on the talks with Bashev. (Ibid.) McSweeney reported on his meeting with Traykov in airgram A–498, April 22. (Ibid., POL 17–1 US–BUL)
3. Senator Magnuson visited Bulgaria September 27–30 as President Johnson’s representative to the Plovdiv Fair, which was held September 15–October 2. He met with Zhivkov on September 28. A memorandum of their conversation was transmitted as an attachment to airgram A–127, October 11. (Ibid., LEG 7 Magnuson)
4. For text of the speech, see Public Papers of the Presidents of the United States: Lyndon B. Johnson, 1966, Book II, pp. 1125–1130.
5. This visit has not been identified.
6. October 1–15.
7. For text of the communiqué, released on October 25, see American Foreign Policy: Current Documents, 1966, pp. 867–871.