Foreign Relations of the United States, 1964–1968, Volume XVII, Eastern Europe

31. Memorandum of Conversation¹

Sofia, October 8, 1965, 10 a.m.

PARTICIPANTS

• Todor Zhivkov, Chairman, Council of Ministers
• Gero Grozev, First Deputy Minister, Foreign Affairs
• Nathaniel Davis, American Minister
• Hans N. Tuch, Deputy Chief of Mission
• FNU Izmirliev, Interpreter

The Prime Minister welcomed Mr. Davis and stated that unfortunately in the relationship between the United States and Bulgaria, ninety-nine per cent depended upon the Department of State and only one per cent depended upon Bulgaria; but that that one per cent consisted of good will and good faith. The Minister said that the Prime Minister is too modest in his assessment, to which the latter replied he is a realist, that 35 years of party and Komsomol work had taught him to become a realist. He added that he was not speaking the language of diplomacy, that he talks straightforward and plain language. He stated that Mrs. Anderson started out speaking to him in diplomatic language but that he wanted to talk with her in human terms which they then did. Zhivkov added that he had been very pleased with his talks with Mrs. Anderson, that he liked her personally and that he would like to send his regards to her. Zhivkov asked how the Minister liked his experience in Bulgaria—a Communist State. The Minister said that this was already the third country in Eastern Europe in which he had served and that therefore the area was not new to him. In reply to Zhivkov’s question, the Minister stated that he had served in Czechoslovakia and the USSR, to which Zhivkov retorted that these are the “classical countries of socialism” that they are “developed countries” whereas “we are poor”. The Minister answered that he felt that Bulgaria was developing industrially very quickly, that he had seen some of the new industrial plants and was impressed and that the statistics show how quickly Bulgaria is developing its industry.

The Minister then stated that he was here in order to improve relations with Bulgaria; and that he did not consider for a moment that this improvement of relationship must be at the expense of Bulgarian relationships with the Soviet Union. He assured the Prime Minister that we understood this perfectly well. We know that the Soviet Union has given Bulgaria great assistance, that there are close historical and ideological ties between Bulgaria and the USSR. He stated that our relations with Bulgaria cannot possibly be as close as those of Bulgaria with the Soviet Union. It is not our objective to interfere with these close relationships. We are located far away, whereas the Soviet Union is a close neighbor of Bulgaria. We realize that Bulgarian-Soviet relationships will be primary. But on the positive side, the Minister continued, there is no historical or other fundamental reason which should prevent us from having good relations with Bulgaria. Our historic contacts have been constructive. Just as Bulgaria has improved its relationships with other countries, we have the same objectives. These are modest objectives but they are real.

The Minister then stated that he particularly was anxious to improve communications—contacts between the Bulgarian Government and the Legation. We want to know what they consider to be problems and we want to discuss how we can solve them. The Minister felt that there had not been enough real effort to solve mutual problems. We should break out of isolation from each other. The Minister assured the Prime Minister that although he obviously does not control all U.S. policies it is his desire and the desire of our Government to find ways to lessen problems. Some problems have already been solved and he hopes to be able to solve more. He asked Zhivkov whether there are any problems concerning our relationships which he should try to work on.

Zhivkov replied that he welcomed the Minister’s words especially in regard to maintaining contacts and solving problems. What the Minister said about improvement of relations not being at the expense of the United States-Soviet relationship is of course true. The U.S. should have no illusions on this. He, Zhivkov, would not be in his present position if it were otherwise.

In speaking about our mutual relationships, Zhivkov continued, he must revert to Mrs. Anderson’s time and even before—to World War II. Our major problems are that the United States discriminates politically and economically against Bulgaria. The Department of State must take the first step to eliminate this discrimination, and no improvement in our relationships can take place until the U.S. has stopped discrimination, especially in trade. If the U.S. cannot stop discrimination completely it should at least take steps which lead toward the end of discrimination. There are, of course, also international problems, primarily Vietnam, which hamper our relationships. We can improve our cultural relationships and contacts but the real essence of our relationship depends on the end of U.S. discrimination. Zhivkov said that he felt that he did not need to develop this subject in theoretical terms, that he could speak practically. He stated that their relations have improved with those states which do not discriminate against them politically and economically even though they have other social systems. He cited examples—England, France, Italy and Belgium. He went on to state that even with West Germany their relationship is “normal”. He stated he is satisfied with Bulgaria’s relations with West Germany and they can “live together”. But with the United States they are not satisfactory. He felt that they will not improve for a long time. He said, speaking frankly, Bulgaria cannot expect to stop the U.S. from conducting political discrimination against it but the U.S. can improve economic relationships by lifting tariff restrictions, at least in part. Once this problem is solved we can discuss other matters such as cultural relationships. He stated that he talked about cultural relations with Mrs. Anderson often; they had sent the Kutev Ensemble to the United States, but American newspapers then wrote that every third member of the Kutev Ensemble was a spy. Anyhow, he stated, Bulgaria is prepared to exchange cultural attractions. Again however, the key to elementary good relations is the question of discrimination. He said that with the British Bulgaria has perfectly normal relations even though Great Britain is a capitalist country and Bulgaria is a socialist country. But there is no discrimination. There are certain difficulties and even Bulgaria imposes certain restrictions on trade but there is no discrimination.

Zhivkov then changed the subject and asked whether the Minister had ever had a Prime Minister talk to him in these frank terms, to which the Minister replied that this was his first post as Chief of Mission.

Zhivkov then made a reference to the fact that their counter-espionage expenses are getting higher and higher here. The Minister interjected that he felt that perhaps their expenses for counter-espionage could be reduced and referred to one of our principal concerns, namely the question of free access to the Legation. He stated that we too feel that we are being discriminated against in this respect; that he wants to be able to carry out the regular, accepted business of the Legation, and we are not able to carry out normal business as long as access to the Legation is restricted. He added that we need good will on both sides in improving relationships; that it was his desire to bring good will from the United States; that his objective is to solve these problems. The Minister continued that he also desires better economic relationships between Bulgaria and the United States, but that he cannot agree that only one per cent is the responsibility of Bulgaria. The Minister continued that he had a fruitful discussion with Foreign Minister Bashev.² He was gratified that Bashev had told him that they are trying to resolve outstanding questions. On our side, the Minister stated, he will do his utmost to resolve the question regarding tariffs and other problems which have already been raised or will be raised in the future. The Minister stated that the Secretary had told both Minister Popov during the latter’s farewell call³ and Minister Gerasimov’s introductory call⁴ that we desire improvement in economic relationships and that the Administration intends to ask the Congress to pass legislation to increase the flow of peaceful trade, which would include dealing with the question of tariffs. The Minister underlined that the Bulgarian Government must understand we cannot change our tariff policy without changing the law. In the meantime, however, the Legation would do its utmost to facilitate trade. The Minister continued that there are minor questions which serve as irritants to U.S.-Bulgarian relationships and that some of these have already been solved as for instance the question of U.S. importation of raw silk and silk waste. (At this point Mr. Grozev explained to the Prime Minister what the silk issue was and confirmed that it had been solved. Zhivkov obviously did not know the facts in this issue.)

The Minister said he did not wish to exaggerate that we can solve all problems one after the other, but that we will do our best.

Zhivkov stated what Foreign Minister Bashev had told the Minister represented Bulgarian Government policy. He wanted to add that if he felt that the U.S. can change its policy towards Bulgaria even partially, he would take such a change at face value. He added that Bulgaria too wants to improve relationships but he felt that Bulgaria would be the last country in Eastern Europe with which the United States wanted to improve relations.

The Minister asked why. The Prime Minister replied that he spoke from profound experience. Bulgaria was not important to U.S. policies or to U.S. economic interests. He stated that he knew that Bulgaria was considered by the United States to be “the closest satellite” of the Soviet Union.

The Minister replied that our desire to improve relations with Bulgaria was quite apart from the question whether Bulgaria was what the Prime Minister referred to as the Soviet Union’s closest satellite. We feel that an improvement of relationships is possible completely apart from Soviet-Bulgarian relations.

Zhivkov replied that he also thought so, but as he had told Mrs. Anderson, he felt that the Department of State completely underestimates Bulgaria’s position in the heart of the Balkan peninsula. He thought that relationships with Turkey and Greece had improved and that these two countries were realistic in assessing correctly Bulgaria’s importance in the Balkans. He mentioned particularly that Greek and Turkish tourism to Western Europe would not be possible without Bulgaria since all major roads lead through Bulgaria. He stated again that Turkey and Greece base their relationships with Bulgaria on realism—on the fact that Bulgaria is in the center of the Balkans—but that the Department does not understand this. It wants to move “through the back door”. He stated that relationships must be improved through “the main entrance” and not through the back door. The Minister replied that he did not know what Zhivkov was talking about, that he himself was speaking only about “the front door” through which he entered when he came to visit the Prime Minister. Zhivkov replied that he was not talking about the Minister but was speaking about U.S. tactics and strategy of policy.

The Minister again reiterated we wish to improve relations in an open and straightforward way. Zhivkov replied that this is his first meeting with the Minister and that what will follow from now on is important. He stated that, in regard to access to the Legation, Mrs. Anderson had complained to him about the same subject and that he had asked for a report. He claimed that access to the Legation is free. The competent authorities denied to him that they interfered with access and that militiamen stationed in front of the entrance are only there to “guide citizens” who wanted to enter and to be helpful. Zhivkov stated that perhaps they had been overdoing this, to which the Minister replied that he hoped the Prime Minister would interest himself in this question and help to ensure that they would not overdo their duty.

In closing the meeting, the Minister expressed to the Prime Minister his appreciation for the assistance which the Foreign Ministry had given him, in particular, Mr. Grozev, with special reference to the Minister’s radio-TV appearance on July 4.

The conversation lasted approximately 55 minutes and was conducted throughout in a relaxed manner on the Prime Minister’s part verging from time to time almost on the jovial.

Note: In commenting on the cognac which was being offered for frequent toasts during the conversation, Zhivkov related that Tito had tried to get him to drink whiskey which the latter apparently preferred, but he didn’t like whiskey because “it smelled of bedbugs”.

1. Source: Department of State, Central Files, POL BUL–US. Limited Official Use. No drafting information appears on the source text, which was transmitted as Enclosure 1 to airgram A–155 from Sofia, October 14. The meeting was held in Zhivkov’s office. Anderson left post on December 6, 1964, and President Johnson nominated Nathaniel Davis, Sr., as Minister to Bulgaria on May 6, 1965. He presented his credentials on June 4.
2. Reported in airgram A–33 from Sofia, July 23. (Ibid.)
3. A memorandum of their August 30 conversation is ibid., POL 17 BUL–US.
4. A memorandum of their August 12 conversation is ibid., POL 17–5 BUL–US.