326. Memorandum of Conversation0
SUBJECT
- Cuba
PLACE
- The Kremlin, in the Office of the Chairman of Council of Ministers
PARTICIPANTS
- USSR
- N.S. Khrushchev
- Andrei Gromyko
- S.G. Lapin
- Viktor Sukhodrev—translator
- US
- Under Secretary W. Averell Harriman
- Ambassador Foy D. Kohler
- Mr. Michael V. Forrestal
- Mr. William H. Sullivan
Governor Harriman raised the President’s concern with Cuba. Khrushchev answered with some emotion: “What can Cuba do with her seven millions? You have laid a dozen Cubas around us, Turkey, Greece, Iran, Norway, Germany, Italy, United Kingdom, Pakistan, and Japan”—to which Gromyko added South Korea.
Harriman said we had no substantial troops in any of the countries the Chairman mentioned, except Germany and Japan. The President is [Page 789] concerned about Soviet troops in Cuba and had expected Khrushchev would make a significant reduction in Soviet forces on the basis of their understanding.
Khrushchev claimed they have removed three to five times the number of troops reported in the American press, but that he would not disclose the exact numbers “because if I do you will boast that you have squeezed new concessions from the Russians. Anyway, this is a question for us and the Cubans”.
Harriman said that we had reported the removal of about 4,000 Soviet troops from Cuba since the end of the year; five times that number was 20,000 and since the Soviets presumably had only 17,000 in Cuba at that time this left us with a figure of minus 3,000 which was apparently some sort of special Russian arithmetic. Khrushchev replied he would have to have a special report prepared to know exactly what numbers were involved, and there wasn’t time for this now.
Harriman said that because Soviet troops remain in Cuba President Kennedy was having a great deal of difficulty keeping the country quiet on the Cuba issue. If Mr. Khrushchev could either correct the President’s understanding about the numbers of troops that had been withdrawn, or withdraw more, he was sure the President would cooperate in avoiding any embarrassment for the Soviets.
Khrushchev replied that this had become a very complicated and difficult question mostly because there was so much clamor in the United States. There is nothing the Soviets can do to satisfy those who are the chief critics of the President on this issue. The President must take care of them himself.
Harriman said the President would not want to use erroneous figures in confronting his domestic opposition and it would be very helpful to him if he could have some more accurate figures. Khrushchev, somewhat excited, replied that this matter affects the sovereignty and pride of the Soviet Union … the Soviet Union is not accountable to the United States and cannot appear before the world as constantly conceding to American pressure. While he did not want to complicate life for the President and would in principle be ready to furnish information to the President, the latter’s critics would only say this proved the need for more pressure on the Soviet Union because only pressure produced results, and that would make the situation worse. He could state that the Soviet military personnel were there only temporarily, teaching the Cubans to use the equipment they had received from the Soviet Union, after which they would return.
Harriman asked why the Soviets could not remove all their organized troop units, leaving only the instructors behind. Khrushchev replied this was a matter for the Soviets and the Cubans, and they were not accountable to anyone else. Harriman said he hoped Khrushchev [Page 790] understood that this was a very serious subject and that organized military units are more difficult problems than instructors. If these units were removed, feeling would be improved. Khrushchev said if the United States wants normal relations with the Soviet Union, don’t aggravate the issues, don’t ask questions which cause tensions for us, don’t irritate our national pride. Even with a million Soviet troops there, Cuba could not be an invasion springboard. Let the President deal with his own problems at home and keep the lid on the Americans. If he doesn’t want to do that, let him escalate the matter. We are ready for friendship, but are prepared to deal with the other alternative. Neither of us wants to start anything over Cuba, but if anything is started, the Soviets have retaliatory strength.
Governor Harriman said Cuba is creating much tension in the whole Caribbean area and if it is not important to the Soviets to have troops in there why don’t they take them out, and leave only instructors.
Khrushchev repeated sharply that that was the business of the Soviets and the Cubans. It is a question of sovereignty. He asked about the Polaris and American bases in the UK, Greece, Turkey, Spain, Portugal, all directed against the USSR. Still we want them to report to the United States on their troops. The Soviets long ago raised the question, in the context of disarmament proposals, of mutual troop withdrawals from all foreign territory. Why don’t the Americans agree to this? Moreover, why don’t we leave Guantanamo? “By what right do you stay, because you are strong?” However, the Soviets will not raise this point; that is strictly between Cuba and the United States, even though the whole world knows the Americans aren’t welcome there and that the Soviet Union supports Castro’s position. The Soviets will not try to interfere in the internal affairs of Cuba and the United States in this regard. That sort of interference can only lead to war.
Khrushchev repeated that “we really have withdrawn a lot of troops,” and “we have not replaced any … we have withdrawn. All the troops needed to guard the rocket installations were withdrawn after the rockets were taken out”. He understood the President’s difficulties and believed the President has a very sound understanding of the situation. Recent statements by the President and Secretary Rusk indicate there is in the United States a sober appreciation of the situation. This fact will help the Soviets in dealing with the Cubans, and the Soviets intend to train the Cubans as fast as possible in order to make the presence of Soviet instructors unnecessary. The Russians didn’t like the Cuban climate.
Harriman pointed out that, in addition to United States statements, the President has taken many actions which should not be overlooked. Khrushchev agreed that the President’s actions and his words were very encouraging. Immediately after the crisis last fall, United States policy [Page 791] had been somewhat irritating, but now it seemed quite reasonable. Moreover, he believed that an absolute majority of the American people were behind the President in his sober policy and that his opponents had no clear program.
- Source: Department of State, Central Files, POL CUBA-US. Secret. Approved in M on May 6. The source text indicates that it is Part II of IV.↩