154. Report by the Secretary of Defense (McNamara)1

REPORT OF McNAMARA’S 27 SEPTEMBER 63 INTERVIEW WITH RICHARDSON

During a long interview, lasting two hours, Richardson stated (in his words and sequence of thought):

1.
The Buddhist crisis crystallized the discontent which had been lying dormant for some time.
2.
The future is so uncertain he cannot predict what will happen.
3.
The massive arrests of the students has been very bad.
4.
The arrests include the arrest of children of the military officers and high-ranking bureaucrats.
5.
The night arrests are particularly bad for they cause the people to hate you.
6.
R2 told Diem that for each cabinet member it is a personal crisis.
7.
What he particularly deplores is the climate of suspicion.
8.
Diem is still respected but they can’t swallow his family.
9.
R particularly fears action by the highest level of the armed forces.
10.
Twice within the last few days R turned down proposals that he be Secretary General of the Council; Diem said this makes you Prime Minister but R said he can’t accept such a post in this Administration.
11.
R has been told he is under surveillance—the family looks on him as an American.
12.
He does not see anyone with enough moral authority to replace Diem but the course Diem and his family are following will lead to disaster.
13.
Diem is devoted to his country but wed to his family.
14.
The relationships between the US military advisors and their counterparts are good, but if the atmosphere of suspicion does not evaporate, the lower levels of the Vietnamese will withdraw from that relationship—“I see the process”.
15.
Diem is respected; he has a lot of moral qualities, but people are damaging his reputation and that will ruin him. It is a tragedy.
16.
“I ask you Mr. Secretary to be very firm; it is the only way. Don’t cut off aid; suspend the aid.”
17.
Diem is anxious about the delay in commercial aid.
18.
After talking to high-ranking officials in the SVN armed forces, R has nightmares. But men are capable of doing very stupid things.
19.
Four generals have asked to be in the cabinet. They are very dangerous.
20.
To save his country we must put pressure on Diem to force him to stop the repressive measures and force Nhu to leave. Otherwise a coup will occur and this will be disastrous.
21.
Nhu was the instigator of the attack against the pagodas.
22.
Don’t believe what you see on the surface; the people are angry.
23.
The episode of the students is absolutely horrible.
24.
In the bottom of their hearts many officers have been fumed against the government.
25.
The Navy Commander who saved Diem’s life in 1960 can’t even convince his own father of the merit of the government.
26.
People hate Madame Nhu and her brother. If Nhu tried to succeed his brother, there will be war.
27.
Not only have there been night arrests, but kidnappings by the Surete.
28.
The night arrests are terrible; mothers try to delay the taking of their daughters until dawn. It is horrible—like Kadar in Hungary.
29.
You asked me “How many people were arrested; how many released?” “I don’t know.”
30.
The managing editor of Trudo, a paper suspected of being pro-American has now been jailed.
31.
The feeling of many of the cabinet members is that they are fed up. They want to resign. But if they do, they are lost. Many cannot afford to leave the country and those who don’t will be put in jail. There were 36 secret agents in Mau’s house when he was going to leave.
32.
R told Diem: you can’t survive without American aid. The plaster will go, then the dong—the rate is already dropping.
33.
Khiem, the brother of Madame Nhu and head of the secret police, is a mad man and obsessed with sex. R is on his assassination list.
34.
The Minister of Economics, a devout Catholic, told R he could not sleep last night thinking of Nhu’s statements which were so anti-American. He believed no one could benefit other than the Communists and this led him to conclude there must be a Communist behind him.

Robert S. McNamara3
  1. Source: Washington National Records Center, RG 330, McNamara Files: FRC 71-A-3470, Back Up Documents and Notes 9/25/63-Trip to SVN. Secret.
  2. “R” is a code name for Nguyen Dinh Thuan, Vietnamese Secretary of State at the Presidency and Assistant Secretary of State for National Defense.
  3. Printed from a copy that bears this typed signature.