Office of the Historian

120. Memorandum of Telephone Conversation Between the Secretary of State and the Director of Central Intelligence (McCone)1

Washington, September 17, 1963—12:01 p.m.

TELEPHONE CALL FROM MR McCONE

Sec resumed the call and replied the mtg at 5:30 today2 is to deal with the question as to what we now tell Lodge to do. Letter will come up3—also whether to bring him back. What is on Sec’s mind is we might have him have one more talk prior to coming back for consultation. [Page 241] Then back here and then maybe take the other man back4 after talking here. M said in that Agency there would be insurmountable problems raised re this man—no confidence at all in him and M could assume no responsibility for the operation. Sec said question of how he is hooked on and the organization responsibilities do not have to follow the particular pattern as in the letter. Missed what M said. Sec thinks it should be talked out. If it is a policy question, that is one thing. Other kinds of questions are another matter. Harriman had a long talk this a.m. and within limits of confidence etc. he seems to be thinking along the terms we are. M not sure what terms are. This whole thing was built up by him through Rufus Phillips. Lodge does not know this fellow. Sec said Lansdale denied this. This point seems fairly incidental. Big job is getting something to Lodge that makes sense and also consider how—bring him back or send someone out—not too keen on Hawaii. M said you get him in town and then the press and Congress are on him. This not so in Hawaii. M said the Unna article5 was incredible and Sec told him what it stemmed from. Sec will be spending most of the rest of the day on it but if Lansdale thing is not appealing to M and McNamara …6 Sec thinks it is a small part of it. M said he has no confidence at all in him. They could replace Richardson if Lodge wants it but not someone from the outside.7

  1. Source: Department of State, Rusk Files: Lot 72 D 192, Telephone Conversations. Transcribed by Phyllis D. Bernau.↩
  2. Reference is to a meeting at the White House with the President. In addition to Rusk and McCone, McNamara, Robert Kennedy, McGeorge Bundy, and Harriman attended. Johnson Library, Rusk Appointment Book) No record of the meeting has been found.↩
  3. Document 104.↩
  4. Reference is to Lansdale.↩
  5. Reference is to an article by Warren Unna in The Washington Post, September 17, entitled “U.S Policy Mired in Views of 3 Agencies.” Unna claimed that the Department of Defense and CIA wanted to get on with the prosecution of the war while the Department of State remained concerned about the Diem government’s repression and unpopularity.↩
  6. Ellipsis in the source text.↩

  7. Rusk and McGeorge Bundy had another telephone conversation, September 17—3:47 p.m., regarding the 5:30 meeting. The transcription reads as follows:

    “B returned the call and Sec thought at 5:30 the small group should meet first. B said that is the way it is. Only Sec, McNamara, McCone, Harriman, Bundy and AG will be there. Sec said key question is whether we bring him (Lodge) back. Question of message etc. B said Pres’ reaction is against that but he has not examined all of it.” (Department of State, Rusk Files: Lot 72 D 192, Telephone Conversations)

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