113. Memorandum of Conversation1
Vice President’s General Secretary Gorbachev Breakfast, Soviet Embassy
The breakfast discussion was preceded by 25 minutes of one-on-one discussion between the General Secretary and the Vice President.
Much of the discussion over the breakfast table was free-wheeling and somewhat difficult to follow as a result of the informal character of the exchanges.
The first topic that caught the General Secretary’s interest was energy issues. The Vice President had begun by introducing Governor John Sununu of New Hampshire, Chairman of the National Governors Conference, who was seated on Gorbachev’s left.
Gorbachev asked Sununu what he thought about the development of nuclear energy sources.
Sununu: I support nuclear energy, although this is a political problem for me. The Chernobyl accident reinforced the political problem.
Gorbachev: The percentage of nuclear energy produced in the United States and the USSR is about the same (he gave a figure for the percentage). This contrasts with France and Belgium, which produce approximately 80% of their energy from nuclear sources.
Sununu: Eventually both our countries will reach the levels of Belgium and France.
Gorbachev made some comments about US-Soviet cooperation in energy development, and asked Dr. Velikov to comment on the program.
Gorbachev: If nuclear power reactors were destroyed in France or some of these other countries, it would be a kind of nuclear war. The elimination of the effects of Chernobyl cost us 4 billion rubles. And this was not even the most difficult aspect of the Chernobyl situation. So the idea that one can do something when a nuclear war starts is a fantasy. Therefore if our foreign ministers cannot produce results in their arms control negotiations, they should be fired. (laughter)
Shultz: We worked on these issues this morning; now we need the military involvement.
[Page 662]Gorbachev: So I see you hold your own negotiating results in high regard. But we don’t necessarily have the same opinion. (laughter)
Sununu: There are different attitudes in different states about nuclear energy. Some of our states are rich in oil or gas. Others have less and are dependent on energy imports from other states or from abroad—particularly Canada.
Gorbachev: Canada relies on you. I traveled there. They said that this or that firm is a US subsidiary. I asked, “Is Canada a US subsidiary as a country?” No, no, they would say!
Shultz: Mr. General Secretary, you should know that the United States and Canada have a bilateral trade of about $120 billion. Canada exports more to us than we get from them.
Vice President: Some bad trade figures are coming out today2—they will have a bad effect for a few days. So you should sell your IBM stock. (laughter)
Gorbachev: We will discuss problems with your businessmen today. We will push them hard on trade. We are your biggest promoters of trade.
Vice President: Let’s hear from Cooper Evans3 who is a specialist on clean grain.
Evans: We are aware of the General Secretary’s background in agriculture, his efforts to improve the diet of the Soviet people. I note that you have purchased a million and a half tons of soybeans from the US. I also note your interest in poultry production. Our soybean surplus is now expended. Is the USSR interested in more soybean production in the US? Are you interested in earning more foreign exchange?
Some minor points of interest: We are increasingly aware of differences in the protein and oil content of soybeans—5% protein, 3% in oil. We have never made an effort to segregate these qualities to meet the needs of our consumers.
Gorbachev: The problem of grain production is of acute concern to us. When I was in England in 1984 I asked their agricultural minister, “Who produces more grain, England or the USSR?” He said, “We do, as we sell grain to you.” I said, “no, we produce 700 kilograms per capital you produce only 450.” He asked me where we put the grain. [Page 663] I noted that we waste ours on cattle fodder. We should cooperate on the production of grain and soybeans. One problem that we have had since 1979 is that our growth has slowed and this is a syndrome, a problem. Another problem is that many in the Soviet Union are afraid to rely on the US as a source of food products.
Vice President: We have learned from the past, agricultural production should not be a political weapon. I know of no one in the present Administration or in any future Democratic or Republican administration who would use a grain embargo against the Soviet Union as a political weapon.
Vice President: Speaking of Democrats, Mayor Cisneros4 made the mistake of becoming a Democrat early in life. But he is an outstanding Mayor.
Gorbachev: Although he is a Democrat, he is a good man!
Vice President: Yes, and he is upwardly mobile. He perhaps can say a word or two about the state of US cities.
Cisneros: 80% of the American people live in cities. They are the focal point of our. . .
Gorbachev: With us it is 66%.
Cisneros: Most developments in education, medicare and so on occur in our cities. Also, our most serious problems are in the cities. The genius of our political system is its decentralized structures. The Federal government and the cities work effectively together.
I would like to focus on the issue of decentralization. Our country is approaching a major transition. Since the New Deal, we were centralized. But new technologies—telecommunications, television, small and medium businesses. . . . the character of the American people is to be independent. All these factors lead to the decentralization of our system. This is a major story.
Gorbachev: How about General Motors and other big firms. How will they deal with decentralization?
Cisneros: GM and other big firms are now part of an international economy. But job growth in the US is generated by the small firms.
Gorbachev: It seems that US business finds it more profitable to use cheap labor abroad.
Cisneros: In some sectors this is the case, but the US economy is now bursting with the entrepreneurial spirit. Since 1985 we have created more than 700,000 new businesses. In 1981, there were no new [Page 664] jobs because of the phenomenon you described. But small businesses created 6 million new jobs in the last decade. There is now a strong convergence of interest between the state governors and small businesses, which are creating many new jobs.
Gorbachev: What do you think about the trend to the computerization of the labor force? Is this producing growing unemployment?
Cisneros: Actually, new jobs are being created. The computer creates new jobs. But there are problems . . . . We need to improve public education and integrate ethnic groups—Latins—I’m from the Latino community—and Asians.
Gorbachev: How many Hispanics are the US?
Cisneros: 16 million . . . . A model in our country tends to stress entrepreneurial initiative. Modern technology makes it possible. Government from the top down is not necessary; telecommunications makes decentralization possible.
Gorbachev: This is very interesting. We have learned a good lesson from this. More positive than negative elements. Our machine-building is weak, our R&D has been reduced and we have had to substitute through imports. We are now eradicating this disease. We have invested two and a half more times in this five-year plan to the machine building sector. Our computer technology is advancing. Our scientists are now producing super computers, personal and mini computers, and giant computers for industry.
Velikov: We have five interesting super computer projects. Of course, we have to expand our base in micro-electronics. Our goal is to have 1.1 million personal computers and mass use computers.
Gorbachev: We never produced these in the past.
Velikov: Half of these will go to the schools, as this is the leading edge of change. We will have models for electronic mail. One of our most interesting advances in microelectronics is chips with the capacity to make computations at a rate of X billionths of a second.
Gorbachev: When will we have that computer?
Velikov: By the end of the five-year plan we should have ______, and ______ by the middle of the next five-year plan. (The figures he used were not heard by any of the notetakers.)
Gorbachev: I should add that when we started this program there were many competing firms. The young men were pushing our academics. There is never a lack of brains in Russia. Our sore point is administration, not brains. We should look at how the US is calling on us for cooperation—how you are trying to pick our brains. Is this a one-way street? If there is no coincidence of interests, there will be [Page 665] no cooperation. I am saying this for a future presidential candidate (laughter).
Vice President: Dr. Mary Good of the American Chemical Society is looking at the future in her area. Dr. Brooks has been involved in exchanges of letters between school kids. Let’s hear from Dr. Good, and then Dr. Brooks.
Mary Good: I am glad to talk about our exchange program. I hope that it is possible to have better cooperation in the future in the exchange of basic scientific information. You know that the American Chemical Society publishes “Chemical Abstracts.” This is a fundamental data base for all chemical activity. There are major computer banks in the US and in West Germany. We are very interested in working to gain coverage of Russian research.
Gorbachev: In 1979 all our contacts with you in the scientific area were disrupted. Now we welcome . . . .
Mary Good: I’d have some argument with that interpretation. You don’t buy an adequate number of our chemical abstracts for your own staff—yet they all seem to have copies of them. (Laughter)
Gorbachev: That’s good! (Laughter)
Mary Good: Everyone must pay their own way.
Gorbachev: I have got your idea. All our sciences are self-financed, as of next year.
Vice President: Lastly, let’s turn to Dr. Brooks. He is a high school principal in Des Moines, Iowa.
Brooks: I bring you regards from our students. They are very pleased with the Summit. Your educational challenge is like ours. We have to meet the needs of our students for dealing with the real world, a technical world, a computer age. There are many kinds of computers, so they need to learn this new age. Our students are interested in an exchange program with the Soviet Union. It is a great way to break down myths between countries. Our exchanges are not just a matter of letters—although I would like to present a few of our letters to the General Secretary.
Vice President: Dr. Brooks, tell the General Secretary the level at which you teach.
Brooks: My school has 2,000 students; they’re in the 15 to 18 year age range. You should read a few of these letters. They come right from the heart.
Gorbachev: I support both your ideas wholeheartedly.
Brooks: Iowa has a sister relationship with one of the Soviet states—we might expand our exchanges through this relationship—I guess it is with Stavropol.
[Page 666]Raisa Gorbachev: May I ask. You mentioned that to dispel myths it is necessary to have more contact. My question is what is the origin of these myths? Who is interested in creating, sustaining these myths?
Brooks: Adults are at fault. The media, and teachers.
Raisa Gorbachev: Teachers?
Gorbachev: Dr. Velikov organized a summer meeting with some American children. Their letters were published. It surprised me that 15 and 16 year old children had such a high sense of responsibility about friendship and cooperation. They have grown up thinking that our country is poor and backward, but they found out that we are an interesting country. This is the fault of advertising.
Raisa Gorbachev: I recently met some American teachers. They said this was the second discovery since Columbus. I was surprised at their sincerity—they were not myth makers.
Gorbachev: They were hard working American intellectuals—another source of future presidential candidates. (Laughter)
Vice President: One way to dispel these myths is to solve the problems that Secretary Shultz and Minister Shevardnadze are working on.
Gorbachev: They have very unpleasant work to do.
At this point the Vice President noted that time was running out. He thanked the General Secretary for his hospitality in hosting the breakfast. Informal discussion continued as the guests departed from the table.
- Source: Reagan Library, Fritz Ermarth Files, U.S.-Soviet Summit November-December 1987 (13). No classification marking. No drafting information appears on the memorandum. All blank underscores are in the original. The breakfast conversation took place at the Soviet Embassy.↩
- See Robert D. Hershey, Jr., “Trade Gap Sets Monthly Record at $17.6 Billion.” New York Times, December 11, 1987, p. A1.↩
- T. Cooper Evans, a former Republican Congressman from Iowa (1981–1987).↩
- Henry Cisneros, Democratic Mayor of San Antonio, Texas (1981–1988).↩