125. Memorandum of Conversation, Beijing, April 20, 1972, 8:55-10:40 p.m.1 2
THIRD MEETING
Great Hall of the People
Peking, China - April 20, 1972
CHINESE DELEGATION
Premier Chou En-lai, Premier of the Chinese People’s Republic
Prof. Chou Pei-yuan, Vice-President of the Chinese People’s Institute of Foreign Affairs, Vice-Chairman of the Revolutionary Committee of Peking University
Mr. Chiao Kuan-Hua, Vice-President of the Chinese People’s Institute of Foreign Affairs, Vice-Minister of the Chinese Foreign Ministry
Mr. Chang Wen-chin, Director of Department of American and Western European and Australasian Affairs of the Foreign Ministry
Mr. Chou Ch’iu-yeh, Secretary-General of the Chinese People’s Institute of Foreign Affairs
Mr. Chu Chuan-hsian, Deputy-Director of the Protocol Department of the Foreign Ministry
Mr. Hu Hung-fan, Council Member of the Chinese People’s Institute of Foreign Affairs
Mrs. Cheng Chi-hung, Council Member of the Chinese People’s Institute of Foreign Affairs
Miss Tang Wen-sheng, Interpreter
Mrs. Tzu Chung-yun, Interpreter
Mr. Chao Chi-hua, Interpreter
Mr. Lian Cheng-pao, Stenographer
AMERICAN DELEGATION
Sen. Mike Mansfield (D., Mont.), Majority Leader, U.S. Senate
Sen. Hugh Scott (R., Penn.), Republican Leader, U.S. Senate
Mr. Frank Valeo, Secretary of U.S. Senate
Mr. Bill Hildenbrand, Admin. Asst. Republican Leader, U.S. Senate
Mr. Norvil Jones, Staff Member - Senate Committee on Foreign Relations
Meeting lasted 1 hr. 45 mm. (8:55p.m. - 10:40p.m.)
April 20, 1972
[Page 2]Premier - How many more days in Peking?
Mansfield & Scott - Three.
Premier - Do not want to overtire you. Let’s set limit for 10:30 p.m. and resume later if we do not finish. What way could tension in Far East be reduced?
Mansfield - Settlement of war in Viet-Nam.
Premier - War in Indo-China.
Mansfield - Correct way to put it - other steps in due time will be taken - question of Taiwan for China to settle. Japan - apprehension understandable - but maybe not as bad. Korea - U.S. not Asian power but Pacific power - Pacific power in Pacific, not on mainland. Equality of all nations and all peoples in the area. Viet-Nam - neutralization. Korea - reunification. Japan-U.S. & USSR - getting together to guarantee neutralization of Indo-China.
Scott - With belief that solution will be pacific and may take a while - the reunification of China without U.S. presence, including Taiwan, can occur after the end of Viet-Nam conflict both Mansfield and I want end. It should be brought to end immediately. Question of POW is of emotional concern to Americans but must Americans want U.S. out totally, air, ground and sea. Should occur at the peace table under mutual conditions. People of Viet-Nam should choose freely their government - my view cannot be resolved without settling POW question. U.S. people agreed to total withdrawal but not without conditions. In Korea - we have withdrawn 1/3 of our forces - total withdrawal should be accomplished with an armistice. Realize your disillusionment with Geneva Accord - maybe a new accord with new nations and those who did not sign before - U.S. has always looked west with depth of concern that at times has been low temperature, but always concerned - Europe is like peaks and valleys - sometimes we have been involved - sometimes not. In the west we are riding a wave toward agreement - the finest time that I have seen in my 71 years but we must do it together.
[Page 3]Premier - It seems then that both Senators agree that to relax tensions the primary question is Viet-Nam. To be more precise Indo-China and the withdrawal of foreign troops. Do you think the escalation by bombing North Viet-Nam can bring this about?
Mansfield - I made a statement in Honolulu that it would prolong the war - both sides should stop acting like little boys with chips on shoulders and sit down at Paris table (repeats Kissinger secret talks.) It appears to me we place too much emphasis on pride - we have lost in this war - through April 1st a total of 302,802 wounded - 45,000 dead, 10,123 dead from non-combat—total 55,802 dead, 358,622 total casualties. It includes 147,631 South Vietnamese dead and Allied forces 4,876 dead and the other side 805,395 casualties—this war in some fashion must be brought to an end - not on battlefield - must be by negotiation. Nobody wins a war anymore - I think the talks should be expanded to include Laos and Cambodia - I do not believe bombing is the way to shorten it but to lengthen it. As Senator Scott has pointed out the stumbling block is the POW question. President Nixon did make a proposal some months ago that if agreement could be reached for a time certain if all POWs were released, he would be willing to consider a proposal.
Scott - Radio Hanoi reports that renewed bombing has unified North Viet-Nam. It has also in my view unified America - I support the President’s position. What other course is open to the U.S. pending withdrawal of our remaining forces? Expand talks - there is open invasion (from North) now. First time since Sparta moved against Athens that a country has moved its entire forces out of its country to invade another. The bombing has now been temporarily suspended but if I were Hanoi I would offer to release all POWs - this would have vast effect on public opinion and the President would be aware of it. Do not agree that bombing prolongs war - we may be entering last phase.
(Chou asks for list of POWs.)
Scott & Mansfield - U.S. thinks may be as high as 1,600, but Hanoi admits to 400 to 500.
Premier - Sorry to interrupt but heard from unofficial sources that President has temporarily suspended bombing but Secretary Laird in testimony said it was not correct.
[Page 4]Mansfield & Scott - Not aware of such testimony.
Premier - I heard that in the past the Senate has expressed opinion that a final date for withdrawal could be reached if all POWs were released on final date.
Mansfield - Passed Senate twice - a date certain depending upon release of prisoners.
Premier - By American Armed Forces - do you include Air Force and Navy?
Mansfield - Yes - all in Viet-Nam. No forces in Laos or Cambodia except advisors.
Premier - I have heard that Sen. Mansfield had urged the talks in Paris be expanded to include Prince Sihanouk.
Mansfield - Yes, plus King Sri Savang of Laos.
Premier - As far as betrayal by Lon Nol government, we regard him as not the true representative, whereas you deal with him as the government. Here we can only differ - we feel that Sihanouk speaks not only for persons outside Cambodia but for the large forces in Cambodia. Originally, mostly peasants but now large groups of city dwellers are leaving to support national forces of liberation in the country.
Mansfield - About half of Cambodia now so occupied - but in Laos, where U.S. forces left North Viet-Nam ignored “62” agreement and increased from 15,000 to 70,000 - am I correct?
Premier - Of course,you speak from your information but I would like to call your attention to the facts: China was a signatory to the “62” agreement - at the time the issue was never solved that within the area of the Pathet Lao there was a group of bandit meos who stubbornly and obstinately refused to move from the area assisted by the CIA, then and now, with Thai troops being furnished and supported by CIA.
Mansfield - CIA was not involved at time of “62” agreement CIA came later after N. Viet-Nam did not live up to agreement to withdraw troops.
[Page 5]Premier - This causes us to go back to agreements of 1954 we can go into that later - did CIA meddle in affair to install Lon Nol at the expense of Sihanouk?
Mansfield - No, as far as I can determine, CIA had no part.
Scott - If they had anything to do with it, Sen. Symington would have unearthed it.
Mansfield - When Nixon came into office he reduced forces in Viet-Nam from 549,000 to 85,000 and is continuing. I expect him to continue down to 69,000 May 1st— he will make another announcement prior to May 1st. It is my belief, it is his intention to announce further troop withdrawals - Nixon has reversed trend from in to out.
Premier - Shall we go? I affirm one point - we have noticed that Nixon has indeed made these withdrawals, only that in itself is not enough. Essential issue we must end the war - we must find a way out. We three are in charge of the talks - we are pledged not to interfere in the sovereignty of these countries. We can, of course, give our suggestions to them. The same that the two Senators can offer advice but final action is up to the government. We truly are waiting.
Mansfield - For what?
Premier - For the end of the war in Viet-Nam.
- Source: National Archives, Nixon Presidential Materials, NSC Files, Box 1038, Files for the President-China Material, Mansfield/Scott Trip to China [April-May 1972]. No classification marking. No drafting information appears on the memorandum; presumably drafted by Jones. The meeting was held at the Great Hall of the People.↩
- Senators Mansfield and Scott and Chinese Premier Chou En-lai agreed that an American withdrawal from Vietnam would reduce tensions in Asia.↩