133. Memorandum of Conversation, September 5, 1975.1 2
DEPARTMENT OF STATE
Memorandum of Conversation
September 5, 1975
SUBJECT: Secretary’s Meeting with Indonesian Foreign Minister Adam Malik
PARTICIPANTS:
- Indonesia
- Foreign Minister Adam Malik
- Anwar Sani, Permanent Representative to the UN
- Rusmin Nuryadin, Indonesian Ambassador to the US
- Alex Alatas, Special Assistant to the Foreign Minister
- United States
- The Secretary
- Philip C. Habib, Assistant Secretary for East Asian and Pacific Affairs
- Edward C. Ingraham, Country Director, Indonesia
DISTRIBUTION: S - Mr. Bremer, Mr. Adams, WH -Mr. Rodman, S/S
The Secretary: How are you, Mr. Minister?
Foreign Minister Malik: How are you?
The Secretary: I am glad to see you, Mr. Minister. It is good for me to be seen with non-aligned leaders these days.
(Photographs taken.)
The Secretary: Were you in Lima, Mr. Minister?
Foreign Minister Malik: Yes. I came from there last week.
[Page 2]The Secretary: Are you speaking Indonesian? Why? You speak perfect English.
Foreign Minister Malik: No. Not perfect. (He continues speaking Indonesian, with Mr. Alatas interpreting.) First of all, I would like to congratulate you on the results achieved in the Middle East. Although it is only one step, it is a most important one. Only a week ago it was predicted that some of the Arabs would make it impossible. The Syrians.
The Secretary: What happened was that there was a choice. Either nobody makes progress or somebody makes progress. I think now that the Syrians, after making their protests, will start to work with us.
Foreign Minister Malik: How about Jordan?
The Secretary: Jordan is an old friend. As soon as the Arabs permit Jordan to negotiate, we will push them toward negotiations.
What I would like to do is to review our relationship. We last met not too many weeks ago. What are your views on the situation in Timor?
Foreign Minister Malik: I want to assure you that we have patience. We will keep our patience even though there is pressure from certain groups — the Catholics for example — for more decisive action.
We have put some constructive proposals to the Portuguese. But they have said they are incapable of handling the situation in East Timor. We have taken the position that we are prepared to move in to restore order, but only in association with the others — Malaysia and Australia — and at the request of Portugal.
[Page 3]The Secretary: Do you think it will be possible to get the others to agree to this?
Foreign Minister Malik: Malaysia has already agreed. The Australians may agree. Our problem is that Santos [the Portuguese Special Envoy now visiting the area] does not have authorization from Portugal to negotiate an agreement with us.
The Secretary: If you moved in, what do you think you would do with Timor? Incorporate it into Indonesia?
Foreign Minister Malik: We are thinking along several lines. The Portuguese should replace their own authority in Timor with a joint authority that includes the others — Malaysia and Australia and Indonesia. The task would be in several fields: to restore security and then to restore political, social and economic conditions. In our observations, the supply of weapons in Portuguese Timor is not large enough for them to continue fighting each other much longer.
The Secretary: What is the population of Portuguese Timor?
Foreign Minister Malik: About 600 thousand. We believe that if Portugal will agree to a temporary restraining authority, and if within that authority Indonesian troops are used to restore order, we can do this within 24 hours. One problem for us is that it will be a financial burden to Indonesia. That is one reason why we want a joint authority with Malaysia, Australia and Portugal.
The Secretary: You mean you want them to share the financial burden?
Foreign Minister Malik: Yes, we do.
[Page 4]The Secretary: Only a Foreign Minister of your skill could talk them into that! You want Malaysia and Australia to join you in the authority but to use Indonesian troops, is that right?
Foreign Minister Malik: Yes, that is it.
The Secretary: How about 200 observers?
(Laughter)
Foreign Minister Malik: As we see it, the problem of Portuguese Timor is not Indonesia’s responsibility but Portugal’s. But we fear that if the situation continues there will be a threat to us — smuggling, infiltration.
The Secretary: I usually look at these things from the historical viewpoint. Probably a bad habit. I had always assumed that in about ten years or so Indonesia would take over Portuguese Timor — for symmetry! I will not spend any sleepless nights over it. Am I saying anything different from what you have been telling them, Mr. Habib?
Assistant Secretary Habib: No. That is what I have been telling them. I have told Ambassador Rusmin that we admire President Suharto’s patience. That is what we need at this point, patience.
The Secretary: I have studied your President’s way of dealing with Sukarno. It was very clever. Taking his authority away just a slice at a time. I expect you will do the same with Timor.
Foreign Minister Malik: But in Timor things are moving very quickly. We could use your help.
The Secretary: How?
[Page 5]Foreign Minister Malik: With the Portuguese. Maybe you could talk to them.
The Secretary: Everything depends on the political struggle in Portugal. If the communists take over, that will be a problem. You will have a problem with them in Timor, too.
Foreign Minister Malik: We hope the non-communists will come out on top.
The Secretary: If the non-communists win out, then we can talk to them.
When you were in Washington last July, we talked about a bilateral commission. We are prepared to proceed.
Foreign Minister Malik: We would also like to proceed. As we would like to see it, the commission would cover not only economic topics but would be more comprehensive, political and military as well.
The Secretary: To include political and economic topics as well? Yes, that’s fine. How are we proceeding to set it up?
Assistant Secretary Habib: Economic Affairs Minister Widjojo has been designated to work on the commission for the Indonesian side. Widjojo and Ambassador Newsom will be in touch with each other in Jakarta. We have sent a message to Ambassador Newsom asking him to get in touch with Widjojo.
The Secretary: Some day I will write a book about the bureaucracy. Every bureaucratic problem that comes up can be settled in some six-hour period. I am trying to convince my colleagues to start the six-hour period tomorrow. We can proceed with the bilateral commission whenever you are ready. I will push my associates. Since Mr. Habib’s [Page 6] heart attack, he is the only Assistant Secretary I treat well.
Assistant Secretary Habib: We hear that on the Indonesian side Minister Widjojo has been preoccupied with other duties, but that he is now ready to concentrate on the commission.
Foreign Minister Malik: There is one more thing. A military delegation from Jakarta will arrive in Washington the 11th to start talks on the 15th. We would like to ask your special attention to this. Usually civilians do not meddle with the military, but this is very important to us.
The Secretary: Who will be heading it?
Foreign Minister Malik: General Sumantri. And Bennie Murdani. I hope you can look into it.
Assistant Secretary Habib: The problem is money.
The Secretary: What about the Vietnam equipment?
Assistant Secretary Habib: I may be needing your help on that. In general things are going all right, but I may need to come to you for help on that.
The Secretary: Mr. Habib’s theory is that if I don’t know what is going on, all is well.
Foreign Minister Malik: The delegation will be going over our military needs and our priorities.
The Secretary: I have always been in favor of a decent military aid level for Indonesia. You can count on it. Indonesia is the most important country in Southeast Asia.
Foreign Minister Malik: But you forget about us. Why don’t you come to Bali?
The Secretary: With my wife, I’ll come.
Foreign Minister Malik: We would like to have the commission established by the end of the year.
[Page 7]The Secretary: At what level would it be?
Foreign Minister Malik: The ministerial level.
The Secretary: If it is at the ministerial level, I will have my chance to go to Bali. We can sign at the airport and go straight on to Bali.
Foreign Minister Malik: We should say something about the special session. We think your approach is wrong.
The Secretary: In what way is it wrong?
Foreign Minister Malik: You make a commitment of $200 million and then you ask the others for $2 billion. You should have asked the others for their commitment of $2 billion before you commit your $200 million.
The Secretary: A good point, but we will find some way not to give up the$200 million. We can tell them Congress won’t let us have it. As to the special session, I wanted to make a conciliatory speech. We have important proposals, and we would like them to be given full consideration.
I wanted to talk to you about oil prices. I know that Indonesia does not consider itself an influential member of OPEC. But you should know that an oil price rise would have a very bad effect here. I think the effect would be out of all proportion to the benefits you would get from it.
Foreign Minister Malik: How about the Trade Act? How is Indonesia going to get away from the discrimination in the Act?
The Secretary: We will be trying to get the restrictions lifted this fall, try to have Congress exempt those OPEC countries not joining the oil embargo. That is [Page 8] the Green Amendment, isn’t it? The trouble is that Congressman Green is holding up the Amendment because of the possibility of an OPEC oil price increase. We will try to get it through this fall. We sympathize with you, and we understand your problem.
Foreign Minister Malik: I would like to mention Law of the Sea.
The Secretary: Yes, I made a speech on that recently. I am hopeful that we can reach agreement at the next conference. Your special problem, as I remember, is the question of transit through the archipelago.
Assistant Secretary Habib: We have just discussed this. We should be holding technical talks on a bilateral basis before the next conference. Our people and Air Marshal Sudharmono will be getting together on this.
The Secretary: The issue is primarily transit through the archipelago and the air corridor, isn’t it? Is it an insoluble problem? What are the positions on the air corridor?
Ambassador Rusmin: The difference is between 55,000 feet and 25,000 feet. On transit through the archipelago and the strait, we differentiate between warships and other vessels. We have no problem in transit for U.S. ships but we are considering the general aspects. The Russians will want transit rights. The Russians and then the Chinese. This is a different problem for us altogether.
The Secretary: I have not studied the compromise proposals. I will look into this before the next conference. But in the meantime, we should have the technical talks.
[Page 9]Foreign Minister Malik: We hope for a compromise suggestion on Korea. I have met with North Korean Foreign Minister Ho Tam and South Korean Minister Kim. The North Koreans are prepared to talk with you on this matter.
The Secretary: We cannot accept the position that we should withdraw our forces. We are willing to dissolve the UN Command as long as there is something to replace the armistice agreement. But not our troops. This is between us and South Korea. The North Korean resolution is aimed not at South Korea but at us. You can tell the North Koreans that we do not consider the presence of our troops in South Korea a matter for the UN. We are not interested in dealing with them over the heads of the South Koreans. Over a period of years we may be in touch with North Korea. But they will first have to lower the level of their rhetoric.
Foreign Minister Malik: We have told the North Koreans that they should find a compromise between the two resolutions before the UN.
The Secretary: We have to have a successful outcome here at the UN and some acceptable successor to the armistice agreement. Once that is achieved, we can improve relations with North Korea.
Foreign Minister Malik: Not necessarily. I have talked to the North Koreans and they are willing to talk with you now.
The Secretary: Let me think about it. Now, Mr. Minister, if you will forgive me, I have to swear-in our UN Delegation. Up to now they have all been illegal. It has been a pleasure talking to you.
Foreign Minister Malik: It has been a great pleasure for us as well.