221. Memorandum of Conversation1
SUBJECT
- Visit to Chile and Human Rights
PARTICIPANTS
- The Secretary
- Ambassador David H. Popper
- Mr. R. Driscoll, ARA, Notetaker
Kissinger: I am going to the OAS meeting. I suspect Pinochet will ask for an appointment, but I don’t want you to ask ahead of time.
Popper: Pinochet has already indicated he wants to see you.
Kissinger: I want to see him in as small a group as possible. Do you think we can get anything on human rights?
Popper: I think we should try. There is a fifty/fifty chance that we can get something.
Kissinger: I am not in the business of overthrowing governments. I want that made clear.
Popper: I understand.
Kissinger: I don’t see any alternative to this government. What would happen if another one came into power?
[Page 606]Popper: A new government would be from the extreme left or the extreme right. It is hard to say which, but wherever it came from, it would be more totalitarian.
Kissinger: Other than human rights, what else can I do?
Popper: What can you do, Mr. Secretary:—one of the things that would interest them will be seeing you. They trust you and believe you to be a friend, as opposed to some elements of the USG.
Kissinger: That is for sure.
Popper: One thing you can say is to discuss with them the bearing of détente on US/Chile relations. They feel that the détente policy has been discredited and dropped. They see the U.S. as slowly coming around to the all-out anti-communist course they are on. It is an oversimplified view. It would be helpful if you could set them straight.
Kissinger: It is a weird assignment to push away people who want to be friendly. What rationale can I use on human rights?
Popper: That after two and one-half years they should be able to begin relaxing. These practices harm our relations. They see the situation in Cold War terms. They are the only country in the hemisphere to have ousted a Marxist government. They have a David and Goliath complex. Unless they keep their security tight, they feel they will be infiltrated and overthrown.
Kissinger: Where am I staying?
Popper: You will be staying in the manager’s apartment at the Hotel Carrera. It will not be the best place you have ever stayed, but I am sure you will be comfortable. Should Flo call Mrs. Kissinger?
Kissinger: Is there anything to see there? How cold is it?
Popper: There is frost but no snow. The climate will be like north Florida in the winter time. There are vineyards, handicraft centers, beautiful mountain scenery, and the sea coast for Mrs. Kissinger to see.
Kissinger: It would be nice for your wife to call Nancy.
Popper: Would it be useful to indicate to the government of Chile that it ought to make some constructive step on human rights during or before your meeting with Pinochet? The easiest one would be to invite the UN or OAS group to come down. They agreed to discuss the modalities of such a visit during the Simon stop, but they have not yet agreed on a visit.
Kissinger: Would not such a group just condemn Chile?
Popper: The GOC feels they can build balance into a report if it has an ongoing dialogue with the investigating group. The second area is to ask them to lower the state of siege or to give the civil rights some jurisdiction in internal security cases, or reestablish habeas corpus . . . something of that sort.
[Page 607]Kissinger: It would help most if these things appear to be the result of my conversation with Pinochet.
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Summary: Popper and Kissinger discussed the Secretary’s upcoming visit to Chile and how to address the human rights problem.
Source: National Archives, RG 59, Central Foreign Policy File, P820117–2370. Secret; Nodis. Drafted by Driscoll.
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