37. Memorandum of Conversation1 2
SUBJECT:
- The Secretary’s Meeting with Deputy Foreign Minister Kozyrev
PARTICIPANTS:
- USSR
- Deputy Minister of Foreign Affairs Semyon P. Kozyrev
- Ambassador Igor K. Kolosovsky
- Mr. Alexander Shtanko (Interpreter)
- U.S.
- The Secretary
- Senator Claiborne Pell
- Mr. Winston Lord, S/P
- Ambassador T. Vincent Learson, S/AL
- Mr. Bernard H. Oxman, Deputy Head Delegation, LOS
- Mr. Leigh S. Ratiner, Chairman, Committee I Team
- Mr. Terry L. Leitzell (Notetaker)
The Secretary: I look forward to the visit of your Foreign Minister in September. Are you also in the Foreign Ministry?
Minister Kozyrev: Yes, I work in the Foreign Ministry and am the Deputy to your friend, Mr. Gromyko.
The Secretary: It’s been too long since I have seen your Minister.
Minister Kozyrev: I don’t know why it’s been so long.
[Page 2]The Secretary: Of course I did see him in January. You note the balance of forces problem in this particular meeting. We need all these Americans to deal with three Soviets.
Minister Kozyrev: Yes, the balance is not in our favor.
The Secretary: Any voting system would work in this meeting except your interpreter can’t vote.
Minister Kozyrev: We would have to use our veto.
The Secretary: It’s good to have this opportunity to discuss where the Law of the Sea Conference stands. We feel it’s important to conclude a treaty, at least conceptually at this session. We don’t see many contradictions with the Soviet Union on the issues at the conference, and I feel our interests are generally the same.
Minister Kozyrev: I share your view, and I think the faster we move the better.
The Secretary: What problems need to be solved?
Minister Kozyrev: I think you were informed by your delegation that there is already an emerging tendency on some issues. The limit of the territorial sea and the regime for the territorial sea are in good shape. The same is true of navigation except for some small issues in the territorial sea and the Economic Zone. There is general agreement on freedom of navigation and the laying of pipelines and cables. Also, I don’t believe the archipelago provisions will prove difficult. The majority will also support the straits regime. There are some problems in the Economic Zone regime, however. Some States, which in the past have been reasonable, are now making problems. Some have hardened their positions on the Economic Zone to justify their national legislation. The fisheries law of the United States played a negative role in this. We have always attached high importance to a common approach by the U.S. and the USSR on all basic Law of the sea issues. On many issues we have moved together and have had good impact. The departure of the United States from this common approach, in taking unilateral law of the sea action, has had a negative impact.
The Secretary: Is there anything else in addition to the law?
[Page 3]Minister Kozyrev: Yes, there are other things, too. Law of the sea issues have an international character and should be solved internationally. I recall your April 8 statement but your law does not tally with your statement.
The Secretary: I like Russian tactics. They beat me over the head for fifteen minutes, so it takes me at least ten minutes to catch up; but, seriously, we opposed the law. What else has shown unilateral tendencies by the United States?
Minister Kozyrev: The law has hardened developing countries positions and has not brought any benefit to the conference.
The Secretary: We can’t do anything about it now.
Minister Kozyrev: Many developing countries are now firmer on the Economic Zone regime, demanding exclusive jurisdiction and they have hardened their positions on the deep seabed and scientific research.
The Secretary: I was against the law, but Senator Pell here was for it, so you should yell at him.
Minister Kozyrev: No, then someone would accuse me of interfering in domestic affairs.
The Secretary: He’s a Democrat. As long as you support Republicans that’s not interfering in domestic affairs. Seriously, he has supported detente and U.S. and USSR foreign relations, but he’s from a fishing state.
Senator Pell: It’s often very difficult for the Secretary to negotiate because of disagreements with Congress. But another, problem is coming up now with the deep seabed minerals law, which I will oppose and which the Secretary and the President will oppose, but which will pass, in my opinion, within a year or two. What impact will that have on the conference?
[Page 4]Minister Kozyrev: I’m sure Ambassador Learson has told you that many delegations are worried that this kind of action will deadlock the conference. By the way, many delegations link the deep seabed minerals legislation with the statement in your April 8 speech, which said there would be a need for U.S. unilateral action if there were no agreement in the conference.
The Secretary: If we can reach conceptual agreement now on deep seabeds at this session, and just leave drafting for the next session, we can avoid legislation. I have instructed the U.S. delegation not to discuss the legislation. We’ll negotiate without threats and only on substance. I believe that two nations with such parallel interests, comparable technology, and comparable economic interests in the sea should cooperate. I’ll instruct our delegation to be in close contact with you to insure that we move on parallel courses to avoid misunderstandings. That should avoid the dangers of unilateral action. We are now at a critical stage in the negotiations, and Congress will certainly not move during this session. We should work together at this session and see what progress we can make.
Minister Kozyrev: I agree. I note, in passing, that our cooperation has been very good where the US has not strayed from our agreements, but we do have differences. In particular, this concerns the deep seabeds, and when we have differences on basic issues, it is not good for the conference.
The Secretary: I agree.
Minister Kozyrev: We have not been able to agree on precluding the possibility of one country monopolizing the deep seabeds.
The Secretary: I told your Bulgarian colleague today that Marxist states cannot complain about monopolies.
Minister Kozyrev: Yes, that’s true for natural resources on land, but not for the common heritage of mankind. It’s a different matter here because we must satisfy the developing countries.
The Secretary: As a practical matter there can be no monopoly. There are three to four hundred sites available for [Page 5] exploitation. In the treaty we are willing to put a provision that requires work to begin within a five-year period, and that number of years is negotiable. The expense is hundreds of millions of dollars for each mine site. Certainly no one country should work more than four or five sites at a time. That is a serious practical limitation.
Minister Kozyrev: Then we should write it into the convention. Your capacity to absorb nickel today is in the area of 150 to 160 thousand tons a year. If we believe the scientists, five mine sites would produce 180 to 200 thousand tons a year. U.S. data indicates that there are 532 sites.
The Secretary: Why not split them?
Minister Kozyrev: Yes, I agree we should give half to the international Authority.
The Secretary: And we will split the rest. My chief negotiator is now having a heart attack. He has never seen me in action before.
Minister Kozyrev: If we give half the mine sites to the Authority, and half to States, there will be 266 for States.
The Secretary: 133 each.
Minister Kozyrev: But what about other countries?
The Secretary: Mr. Ratiner is having 6 heart attacks.
Minister Kozyrev: Why not say two percent of 266 mine sites. That would give you six sites. But let’s try to settle this problem bilaterally.
The Secretary: I agree. Also, of course, there is a production limit in the revised text of six percent. However, I have another delegation waiting, and I suggest Ambassador Learson and Mr. Ratiner get together with you on all outstanding issues. We want to proceed jointly. I will come back in about two weeks. You should meet early next week, then we can review it in Washington, and I’m sure Mr. Gromyko would not miss a chance to review this in considerable detail. I want to disturb his vacation and make sure he’s not lonely and bored.
Minister Kozyrev: He did the right thing to go on vacation. Are you giving us an indication of putting in some kind of [Page 6] quota?
The Secretary: We cannot do quota, but we will talk about your problem, if it is a problem of monopoly.
Minister Kozyrev: Without a quota we cannot satisfy the developing countries or the Soviet Union.
The Secretary: The developing countries don’t really care because they get half the mine sites anyway.
Minister Kozyrev: They are looking to the future. I have been asked what is the intention of the United States. Is it to secure its own needs for consumption, or to go into the international nickel market? The developing countries know the U.S. needs only a few sites for consumption.
The Secretary: We can’t settle this now. Let’s work next week on where we agree and disagree, and the reasons for the areas of disagreement. Then both sides can make serious efforts to reach agreement. I will come back in two weeks and we can go into the details of any disagreements.