Office of the Historian

285. Memorandum of Conversation1

Washington, December 4, 1963, noon.

SUBJECT

  • United Nations Affairs

PARTICIPANTS

  • Canadian Side
    • Paul Martin, Secretary of State for External Affairs
    • Hedard Robichaud, Minister of Fisheries
    • Marcel Cadieux, Deputy Under Secretary of State for External Affairs
    • Charles S. A. Ritchie, Canadian Ambassador
    • H. Basil Robinson, Minister, Canadian Embassy
  • U.S. Side
    • The Secretary
    • William R. Tyler, Assistant Secretary, EUR
    • Willis C. Armstrong, Director, BNA

Mr. Martin said that he was very much concerned over the proposal for the expansion of the Security Council of the United Nations and the possible loss of the Commonwealth seat. He said the British had reacted as had the United States to the Canadian proposal for four new seats.2 He knew why the United States wanted two, but such action would be very prejudicial to Australia, New Zealand and Canada. The Secretary said he had not supposed that the Commonwealth seat would be lost if two seats were added. Mr. Martin said he did not see how this could be avoided, since the Africans and Asians would wipe out any [Page 632] possibility of the older Commonwealth being elected. If there were four seats added, the chance would be better, because seats could be given to the Africans and Asians. Canada had already told the United Kingdom it could not agree on the proposal for two additional seats. Canada has been thinking of a resolution in the UN, but realizes that the resolution might not pass, and would be subject in any event to a Soviet veto.

The Secretary questioned again the thought that the Commonwealth seat was lost if only two were added, because of the number of African and Asian countries now in the Commonwealth. Mr. Martin agreed that there were many Asian and African Commonwealth members, but pointed out that the older Commonwealth countries would be at a serious disadvantage. He said that a study had been done in Ottawa which indicated that if two seats were added, the chances of Canada being elected were approximately once in 23 years. The same problem would come up with ECOSOC, despite Canada’s importance in the world economy. The Secretary raised a question as to the present distribution of seats, and it was noted that Malaysia and Ghana are now in such seats, but Ambassador Ritchie remarked that Ghana regards its seat as a regional African one. The Secretary wondered whether Ghana obtained its seat with Commonwealth support and the Canadians conceded that this had been so. The Secretary said he would look into the matter to consider the impact on the Commonwealth seat of an addition of two seats in the Security Council.

The Secretary wondered about Mr. Martin’s possible reaction to a Japanese regiment available for UN purposes. Mr. Martin said he welcomed the decisions of the Nordic and the Dutch and he thought a Japanese regiment a good idea. The Secretary said it was important to get African and Asian countries in a position of contributing to UN military forces, and he had also thought about Nigeria. Mr. Martin said that he had talked to the Nordics about having a meeting of military people in Ottawa next spring, to review the problem. He certainly could see no objection to having a Japanese unit, but perhaps people like the Indians or the Filipinos might wonder about it. The Secretary said he was conscious of this possibility, and he emphasized we had not talked to the Japanese about the matter.

  1. Source: National Archives and Records Administration, RG 59, Central Files 1960–63, UN. Limited Official Use. Drafted by Armstrong and approved in S on December 13. The meeting was held in the Secretary’s office. The memorandum is Part 4 of 8.↩
  2. On November 27 the Australian, Canadian, and New Zealand Ambassadors discussed with Cleveland the Canadian plan, which called for enlargement of the Security Council by four in order to preserve the retention of the Commonwealth seat. (Telegram 1548 to USUN, November 28; ibid., UN 8 SC)↩