418. Memorandum of Conversation0
PARTICIPANTS
- Secretary Rusk
- H.E. G.P. Jooste, Head of UN Delegation and Secretary of Department of Foreign Affairs of South Africa
- H.E. Dr. Willem C. Naude, Ambassador of South Africa
Mr. Jooste and Ambassador Naude asked to see me alone for a few minutes after a conversation covered by another memorandum.1 Mr. Jooste told me in great confidence that the South African Government is most seriously and urgently considering withdrawal from the United Nations. He said that they had in mind three elements: (a) South Africa’s own national interest in the face of repeated and almost unanimous condemnations and repetitions of embarrassments and harassments in the United Nations and its component organs; (b) withdrawal from the United Nations might serve to reduce difficulties for certain countries with whom South Africa has had long and friendly ties and (c) South African withdrawal from the United Nations might indeed be of some assistance to the United Nations itself since it would continue to have an important role to play and might not be damaged by a continuation of the present situation.
I told Mr. Jooste that this was a matter of such seriousness that I would not wish to comment off the cuff; that I would not wish to give any views of our Government off the cuff, but that I would make the following preliminary comments: (a) that the South African Government might wish to consider carefully the reasons for its withdrawal and examine [Page 653] realistically whether the purposes to be achieved would in fact be achieved by withdrawal. For example, the withdrawal of South Africa would not cause the South African issue to disappear from the United Nations agenda; (b) I could tell him straightaway that the United States would not wish to ask South Africa to withdraw in order to make things easier in the United Nations for the United States. Although it is true that we have had many painful situations confronting us in the United Nations because of the South African problem, we felt that these were problems inherent in the situation itself and that under no circumstances would we suggest their withdrawal to ease our own situation; (c) I added that I was quite sure in my own mind that they should not give weight to their withdrawal as a means of assisting the United Nations. Indeed, although I know of no way in which the question could be posed, it would be my impression that if the question of South African withdrawal were put to the membership of the United Nations, there would be a large majority indicating that they should not do so. I noted that the earlier effort to expel or suspend South Africa had gathered no substantial support and was now in my judgment a thing of the past; (d) on the question of any comment which we might have to make with respect to South Africa’s own interests, I felt that that was a matter in which I would not wish to speak without further consideration since no such comments should be made irresponsibly. I told him that if we had anything further to say, we would try to do so in the next very few days.