Foreign Relations of the United States, 1961–1963, Volume VII, Arms Control and Disarmament

38. Memorandum of Conversation⁰

Washington, June 30, 1961, 11:30 a.m.

SUBJECT

• US-USSR Exchange of Views on Disarmament

PARTICIPANTS

• U.S.
  • The President
  • Mr. McCloy
  • D/P—Mr. Akalovsky
• U.S.S.R.
  • Mr. V.A. Zorin, Deputy Foreign Minister of USSR
  • Ambassador Menshikov
  • Mr. I.G. Usachev, USSR Foreign Ministry
  • Mr. R.M. Timerbaev, Soviet Mission to the U.N.
  • General A.A. Gryzlov, USSR Ministry of Defense

The President opened the conversation by expressing his pleasure at meeting Mr. Zorin and his group and said that he understood that Mr. McCloy was going to the USSR.

Mr. Zorin replied that he was very happy to have this opportunity of meeting the President and that he considered this as evidence of the President’s interest in disarmament. He said he hoped this meeting would contribute to a fruitful outcome of the talks he had been having with Mr. McCloy.

The President observed that he had sent to Congress draft legislation providing for the establishment of a new disarmament agency so that a more detailed research in this area could be done than we had been able to do heretofore.

Mr. Zorin said that he had had a rather extensive exchange of views with Mr. McCloy. However, frankly speaking, greater progress could have been achieved if a more definite discussion of specific programs had been conducted. He said that sooner or later we would have to deal with such programs.

The President replied that this was correct but said that our primary concern now was to arrange in this exchange of views a practical procedure for further negotiations. He said he was hopeful that a satisfactory conclusion on this matter could be reached so that we could then move to substance. This matter required coordination between many nations, including, on the Soviet side, the Chinese, who would have to be involved in any broad disarmament plan. Of course, our allies were also vitally interested in this problem. The President then expressed the hope that as a result of the talks between Mr. Zorin and Mr. McCloy, a conclusion could be reached with regard to the next step in negotiations; he also hoped that agreement could be reached on a forum that would be broad enough so that a structure could be established for a useful discussion. The President then said that although so far there had been no total conclusion as to how this could be done, he felt that the present talks had been extremely important.

Mr. Zorin responded by saying that the two sides had not wasted their time and had clarified many points in their respective positions, which, of course, would facilitate negotiations. However, the Soviet Union believed that progress in this matter of disarmament depended primarily on an understanding between the US and USSR on the basic questions of disarmament. In the absence of such agreement it would be hardly possible to have fruitful negotiations in the future. He said that experience had shown that it was difficult to make any progress in disarmament unless there was a rapprochement between the positions of the two principal parties. He expressed the hope that the United States would consider the Soviet position as set forth in the statement of the Soviet Government of June 27,¹ so that agreement could be reached in Moscow and negotiations in a broader forum could take place.

The President said that this matter of disarmament was of great interest to us but that it was a very difficult and complex problem. He recalled the efforts made in the League of Nations before World War II and said that in spite of the fact that conditions in those days had been perhaps easier than those prevailing today, those efforts had had only a limited success. He then said that it was a very complicated matter to find ways of increasing mutual confidence which was so necessary if we wanted to create a situation permitting reductions in armed forces of states. He observed that both the USSR and the United States were bearing a heavy burden of armaments and expressed the hope that perhaps a way could be found of using all that money for better purposes to the benefit of humanity. The President emphasized that we were very anxious to develop a system with the USSR and with other countries which would permit a lessening of the arms burden and noted that success in this endeavor would depend on further discussions. He stressed his personal interest in this matter and said that the legislation he had referred to earlier reflected the interest of many members of Congress and of our country at large. He expressed the hope that if no progress could be achieved in this matter immediately, perhaps it could be made in future negotiations.

Mr. Zorin replied that he believed that we must avoid the mistakes made in the League of Nations. The League of Nations had attempted to resolve major technical problems without first having resolved the major political problems involved. The major question was whether those participating in disarmament negotiations really wanted disarmament. If our two countries really wanted disarmament, then the Soviet program and any proposals the United States might have could be examined and could serve as a practical basis for future negotiations. The Soviet Union, Mr. Zorin said, was anxious to engage in practical discussions.

The President then expressed his disappointment over the lack of progress in the nuclear test negotiations. He said he had hoped that agreement in that area could set the stage for progress in the general field of disarmament. He felt that the nuclear test issue was rather easy to resolve and that agreement on that problem would have a very favorable effect not only on US-USSR relations but also on the world at large. The President said he believed that the respective positions of the two sides at Geneva were not very far apart and that agreement on a nuclear test ban could also make these discussions more profitable. Furthermore, it would show the world the usefulness of the US and the USSR’s discussing these difficult matters. The President reiterated his disappointment but said that he was still hopeful that agreement could be reached at Geneva.

Mr. McCloy noted the difference of views between the two sides on the purpose of the present talks. He said that our interpretation of our mission differed from Mr. Zorin’s interpretation but that in spite of that he felt that this exchange of views had been useful. He expressed the hope that both sides could agree on a proper forum and framework for negotiations and then engage in serious negotiations.

The President again expressed his pleasure at meeting Mr. Zorin and his group and said that he wanted to see all matters standing between the US and the USSR settled; therefore, he felt that any progress in these talks would be useful.

Mr. Zorin said he appreciated very much the President’s willingness to devote his time to this meeting and said that he would, of course, inform his government of the wishes expressed by the President. However, he said, success could be achieved only as a result of efforts by both sides and not just one. Therefore, he hoped that Mr. McCloy would receive appropriate instructions so that in Moscow progress could be made on the basis of the views of both sides. As to the question of nuclear test talks, Mr. Zorin said that the only thing he could do was to refer the President to his conversation with Mr. Khrushchev in Vienna, where Mr. Khrushchev had clarified the Soviet position on that issue. Mr. Zorin said that the USSR had not lost hope that agreement could be reached in Geneva; however, if this should prove impossible then the only thing we could do would be to merge the test issue with the general disarmament problem. Mr. Zorin then again thanked the President for this meeting and wished the President every success.

The President replied that he felt it would be a mistake to merge the test talks with general disarmament negotiations. While we were on the verge of an agreement in the nuclear test area, disarmament was an extremely complicated problem requiring great efforts on both sides to build such confidence as would permit reduction in armed forces. The President reiterated his hope that failure at Geneva could be prevented. He then said that Mr. McCloy would have appropriate instructions when he went to Moscow. The main question now was to develop a method for future negotiations and this question would be discussed between himself and Mr. McCloy. The President recalled his statement of about three months ago to the effect that the United States would complete its analysis of the various aspects of the disarmament problem by July and expressed his hope that future talks between Mr. McCloy and Mr. Zorin would make it possible for us to start serious negotiations in an agreed forum.

After an exchange of amenities the meeting ended at 12:15.

0. Source: Department of State, Central Files, 600.0012/6-3061. Confidential. Drafted by Akalovsky. The meeting was held at the White House.
1. For text of this statement submitted during the bilateral talks, see Documents on Disarmament, 1961, pp. 199-213. Text of a U.S. statement submitted at the outset of the talks is ibid., p. 196.