Foreign Relations of the United States, 1961–1963, Volume V, Soviet Union

339. Memorandum of Conversation⁰

Moscow, July 26, 1963.

PARTICIPANTS

• N.S. KHRUSHCHEV
• W. Averell Harriman

Post Dinner conversation between Harriman and Khrushchev:

1. Khrushchev reminisced at length about Stalinʼs night-owl habits. Said they were killing. Stalin called Khrushchev at times to come to dinner at 2:00 a.m. Stalin slept like a horse all day—ate, and went to sleep again. Khrushchev said the great banquets of Stalin were a menace as they had to work all day. Khrushchev spoke of Stalin drinking too much at dinner for General De Gaulle in December 1944. (I was there and didnʼt think Stalin drank too much. General Dean, also present, had agreed. Khrushchev freely confessed he had gone to sleep during the movie. W.A.H.) Khrushchev commented Stalin thought he was God on earth, and used to say capitalists would strangle the USSR after his death. But here we were alive and drinking cognac with capitalists and they were not strangling the USSR. Also, Stalin was a very poor judge of people and in speaking of who would be his successor always pointed at Bulganin; Khrushchev said Bulganin was a nice man but not one possessing broad vision.

2. Re CEMA meeting which ended today, Khrushchev said it had gone very well and everybody had parted well satisfied. In response to Harrimanʼs question about Rumanians, Khrushchev said numerous press reports about the Rumanian situation were all beside the point. Even completely ignorant people could see that Soviet-Rumanian cooperation was not to USSRʼs unilateral advantage at Rumanian expense. Soviets had built something like ten or more plants in Rumania and were buying their products. If Soviets had wanted to draw unilateral advantage, they would have built those plants in their own country and would be now selling at a profit products produced by those plants to Rumania. The same situation applied to other Socialist countries in Europe. Commented that in capitalist countries, where there were difficulties with investing capital within the country, it was normal to export capital, but this was not the case with USSR. Reiterated what he had said at July 15 meeting with Harriman¹ re Soviet plans for massive development of chemical industry, citing figures he had quoted at that meeting—6 billion rubles in chemical fertilizer and 11 billion in synthetics, all in about five or six years. Said Soviets wished buy chemical plant equipment in US, UK and other Western countries. Of course, US was now unwilling engage in trade with USSR but that would do no harm to Soviets; indeed his trade people told him that US produced equipment more expensive than similar equipment produced in UK, West Germany or Italy. He thought reason for that was that US had highest wages. Khrushchev saidUK, Germany, etc., were lending money for equipment new plants for five years. Now Soviets will not borrow except seven or even ten years, because now too many repayments.

3. Khrushchev commented Soviet relations with Afghanistan were very good and there were no difficulties whatsoever between two countries. Thought King of Afghanistan was a good man who understood problems correctly and was very modest and even shy.

4. Re Soviet-Iranian relations, Khrushchev said they had improved somewhat but they would be even better if US did not poke its nose in this area. When Harriman remarked Shah had just instituted great reforms in Iran, Khrushchev commented they were “bold reforms.” Said Shah had common sense but was too self-confident, which was bad if carried to extreme. Noted Soviets had some time ago settled border problems with Iran which had existed for 70 years. Said he had instructed his people to make concessions to Iran, telling them they would be only temporary as sooner or later Iran would have a Soviet regime and then there would be no problem. He said an eventual revolution in Iran was inevitable.

5. Harriman said Stalin told him he had little confidence in Mao. Khrushchev said USSR-Chinese relations were now of course aggravated, but prior to that they were better than relationship between Stalin and Mao. When Harriman referred to Soviet-Chinese border disputes, Khrushchev said that was due to fact that in some areas Soviet-Chinese border was still unmarked. Thought effort should be made to place markers along the border. Said some areas were indicated on Soviet maps as belonging to USSR and on Chinese maps as belonging to China. This was due to different interpretation of situation, but in any event only minor areas were involved. Later in conversation, Khrushchev commented that if the Chinese could get by without the USSR, Soviets could also get by without Chinese.

6. When Harriman referred to recent press reports that Chinese were preparing another invasion of India, Khrushchev said he had not seen such reports. Said Soviets had said privately and publicly they were opposed to Chinese attitude in this matter, which had made Chinese angry. Expressed hope Chinese would have enough common sense not to engage in invasion again as that would only harm cause of peace.

7. In response to Harrimanʼs question, Khrushchev, whispering in his ear, said no decision had yet been made as to who would be his successor. Said they were still weighing that decision, but commented Brezhnev (who was also at the table) was a very capable man, with background in engineering and with good knowledge of political and economic problems; also mentioned Podgorny as a very capable man. Noted, however, he had not lost hope that Kozlov would recover, although it was difficult to entertain such hope. Said Kozlov was paralyzed in his left side (both his left arm and left leg paralyzed) but could speak and his mind was clear. In any event, if Kozlov should recover, his recovery would take a long time.

8. Referring to Khrushchev remark during dinner that he wished send nice present to Attorney General Kennedy on occasion birth his eighth child, Harriman said to Khrushchev Attorney General would be most pleased if Khrushchev would allow Mr. Zaslovsky, husband of a very nice American girl, to join his wife in US. Said Zaslovskys were young people who were very much in love; Mrs. Zaslovsky, nee Stern, was now in USSR and wished very much be able return to her homeland with her husband. Harriman pointed out Attorney General was very much interested in this case.

Khrushchev said he knew nothing about this case. When Harriman turned to Gromyko, latter said he knew but preferred to say on this occasion that he did not. When Harriman repeated Attorney Generalʼs interest in this matter, Gromyko said he would use very convenient American phrase “I will look into it.”

0. Source: Department of State, Central Files, POL 7 US/Harriman. Secret. Drafted and initialed by Harriman. The conversation took place in the Catherine the Great Hall at the Kremlin.
1. Telegram 154 from Moscow, July 16, is a 20-page account of the July 15 meeting. (Ibid., DEF 18-3 USSR (MO)); reproduced in the microfiche supplement to Foreign Relations, 1961–1963, volume VII.