Foreign Relations of the United States: Diplomatic Papers, 1944, China, Volume VI

893.00/1–1049

Memorandum of Conversation⁵⁹

[Yenan,] 8 November, 1944.

The second conference with the Communist leaders was held at 3:00 PM, today and lasted for 3½ hours. The same persons were present as at the previous meeting. At the second meeting Yu Kwang-Sen did most of the interpreting, helped at times by Lt. Eng, Col. Barrett and Chow En-Lai and Chen Chia-Kang.

Chairman Mao said first of all, as I have said in the morning as well as yesterday, I want to extend to you the hearty welcome for your coming to Yenan. I wish to express my gratitude for your help for the sake of unity of Chinese nation against Japan.

Chairman Mao said there have been difficulties in Chinese affairs as Colonel Barrett, who has been in China for many years and who has been in Yenan for awhile, as he knows and as our many other American friends know as well. China has tremendous manpower and natural resources. The only problem is how to unite all forces to fight against Japan. China needs unity but in order to attain unity we need democracy. In other words, we need unity on the basis of democracy. On account of the fact that China lacks democracy, China fights not so well at a time when the anti-Fascist war all over the world goes on quite well and that is why General Hurley representing President Roosevelt came to China to help promote the cause of unity of the Chinese nation [and?] that is why we extend to you our heartiest welcome.

General Hurley said thank you.

Chairman Mao said especially at present time when Japan has attacked the Southwest, when American forces have already reached the Philippines, it needs the coordination of the Chinese war effort. But on the main front for which the Kuomintang authority is responsible we suffer severe defeat[;] for this all Chinese and all our foreign friends are anxious. We hope that there will be a turning point. In the past things have been running in the wrong direction, towards a disruption of unity, to disruption of the fighting forces of the Chinese Army, the disruption of democracy and there has been bad relationship between China and foreign powers. So it is quite time to turn the machine towards a new direction, a new direction of unity, democracy and the strengthening of war effort for telling powerful blows against Japan. So there the assistance of General Hurley in working for this direction all the Chinese people shall be thankful for what General Hurley is doing to it.

Chairman Mao said that in the morning General Hurley said that he expected a free, open and frank talk according to what you have suggested. Up to present time the Kuomintang is still a large political party. It is still a large army. This army in the first two years of resistance war has fought comparatively well. At the present time it is still fighting against Japan. The Kuomintang authority has not yet finally disrupted the national unity. This is a good sign of the party in government led by Mr. Chiang Kai-shek.

Chairman Mao said from this it follows that we need unity against Japan. We have never given up this point. That is to cooperate with Chiang Kai-shek against Japan.

General Hurley said thank you. Excellent.

Chairman Mao said but we must see the other side of the matter that is the difficulty of China today, our shortcomings and severe crisis. If we fail to see this side we will not be able to solve the problem.

Chairman Mao said up to present time the policy of the Chinese we hope that there will be a change. The policy of the Chinese Government has been a hindrance of the unity of the whole Chinese people. In other words, it has been a hindrance to this unity.⁶⁰ China today is divided into three parts or districts. First the Japanese occupied territories. Second, the liberated area held by the Communist party of China and all those who are outside of the Communist Party and work together with the Chinese Communist Party. Then the territory ruled by the Kuomintang.

Chairman Mao said with regard to the Japanese occupied territory the Kuomintang authority does not try to organize underground forces as they did in France for example to coordinate with the allied forces. It does not carry on work in these territories to fight against the invaders. With regard to the liberated areas the Kuomintang authorities have tried all its means to hinder and even tried to destroy these territories. You can look at the map. When you see these vast territories of liberated areas you can understand this is the result of the intense struggle of the Chinese people for eight years and this struggle has been carried on in most difficult and painful conditions and I want to repeat the Kuomintang authority [h]as tried all means to hinder the struggle of the Chinese people in these liberated areas. They tried all means to attack it and to send spies into our territories and these activities are innumerable. Since time is limited I think it is not necessary to tell you all these things.

Chairman Mao said in the territories directly controlled by the Kuomintang authority there lies the most severe crisis. The greater portion of the Kuomintang Army has lost its fighting power. To say the greater part that is the smaller part of the Kuomintang armies has not yet lost its fighting power. From April up to present time the size of the Kuomintang Army has been reduced from two to three million up to less than two million or in more exact figures 1,950,000. The greater portion of the Kuomintang army ran away at the first encounter with the enemy. It is unable to carry serious battle.

Chairman Mao said that in the Kuomintang controlled area the bandits have been springing up everywhere. The trust of the people towards the government has never been so low as at present time. As I have said this is a severe crisis and there has been widespread disaffection among university professors, students and also among the Kuomintang member[s] and the smaller parties.

Chairman Mao said I think our friends of allied powers also wish to understand the war conditions of China. What I have said is a brief picture of the conditions of these three territories. So at this moment when Japan is continuing its attack; when the American forces have reached Philippine Islands; when we need coordination of the Chinese forces to attack Japanese so how can we speedily solve this urgent problem of China today.

Chairman Mao said this morning General Hurley said that if United States add her weight for the sake of promoting the Chinese unity and speedily achieve unity then the American people will be happy and I wish that if this can be achieved the Chinese people will be very happy too. As to how to solve this problem General Hurley has presented five points this morning. That is the tentative basis for agreement. We feel that there are certain problems that should be discussed now. As to concrete terms I am not ready to present them yet. I feel that at this moment it is necessary to discuss a few problems in connection with this basis.

Chairman Mao said the greatest majority of the Chinese people, including the Communists first of all, hopes that there shall be a change in regard to the policy of the government and the organization of the government. This is the minimum basis without which some [no?] agreement may be reached. Without this solution an agreement will not have a solid foundation. It is necessary to reorganize the government. It is necessary to have a united government including the Kuomintang, the Communist Party, all other parties and nonpartisan people in order to establish a real national government.

Chairman Mao said in addition the policy of this government should be suitable to the cause of uniting the whole Chinese people to fight Japan. That is why the policy which is not suitable to the cause of national unity against Japan should be changed. It is of major necessity and importance to reorganize the government. It is first of all for the relief to avert the military, political, financial, economic crisis in the Kuomintang controlled territory. In the liberated areas there is no crisis in spite of the difficulties we are facing. If the government is not reorganized it is impossible to raise the morale of the troops even if they are equipped with new weapons, airplanes and tanks which the Kuomintang authority has blamed the foreign powers for not giving enough supplies. But if the government is not reorganized then even if they receive more supplies the morale of the army cannot be raised at all because the whole apparatus, military, political and financial are corrupt to the utmost point. So to reorganize the government is first of all for averting the crisis of the Kuomintang controlled area. The Kuomintang is in power in this territory. If it chooses not to reorganize the government then it will be impossible to avert the crisis. So the question of reorganization of the government is first of all for averting the crisis of the Kuomintang authority itself.

Chairman Mao said with regard to the question of democratic process it seems to me that the process should be to reorganize the government; to establish a united government and to change the policy of the government. The idea of Mr. Chiang Kai-shek, as demonstrated by past events, is to always postpone until after the conclusion of the Japanese war. All the crises are deepening. It is impossible to avert the crisis in this way. The crisis will be postponed and enlarged and there is the danger of collapse of the government. Not only the Communists but also our foreign friends and reporters have felt this danger of collapse of the government. So if according to Mr. Chiang Kai-shek’s way of thinking, to postpone the matter until one year after the conclusion of the Japanese war then the crisis will not only be postponed but also enlarged and there will be danger of collapse of the government and slap back at the face of those people who propose to reorganize the government.

(This was not quite clear to General Hurley and after a discussion in Chinese between Lt. Eng, Yu Kwang-sen, Chow En-Lai, Chen Chia-Kang and Col. Barrett, the interpreter Yu Kwang-sen gave the following interpretation of Chairman Mao’s statement)

If Mr. Chiang Kai-shek insists upon the postponement of the settlement of the crisis until the postwar period and to slap back at the people who propose reorganization of the government then the crisis will be enlarged and postponed and the government faces danger of collapse.

(This was not entirely clear and after a further discussion among all the persons mentioned above in Chinese the interpreter gave the following amplification.)

To postpone the settlement of the matter and let things drag on the crisis will be enlarged and ultimately result in the collapse of the National Government.

Chairman Mao said the source of this crisis lies in the policy of the Kuomintang authority and the corrupt government apparatus which just collapses at the mere encounter of the Japanese attack. So the source of crisis does not lie in the existence of the Communist Party but lies in the wrong policy of the Kuomintang Party, which cannot stand attacks of the Japanese.

Chairman Mao said the Communists in the Japanese occupied territories are straining its efforts for organization of underground forces in preparing for cooperation with the allied forces landing in China. Then in the liberated areas the Communists carry on open work for employment of the Communists against Japan. So we never hamper the work of Kuomintang in their territory but the Kuomintang hamper our work in the liberated areas as well as the Japanese controlled areas. Out of the 1,950,000 forces, 779,600 Kuomintang troops have been devoted to surrounding our territories and part engaged in attacking our territories. On our part we have devoted all our strength in attacking the Japanese. We have never done anything to hinder their work in our territory.

Chairman Mao said then in the Kuomintang controlled area there are Communists, The Kuomintang authority arrests the Communists and at the first sight and killed them. From 1939 our party in the great rear has been forced to work underground. Only in Chungking where our daily paper has been still allowed to be published there are a few members of communists who have been allowed to work openly and in Sian there are a few who have been allowed to work openly. In the Kuomintang controlled area our party have been forced to work underground. In spite of this we have ordered our comrades in the great rear not to carry on any strike in the factories, no strike in the markets and to support the National Government to fight against Japan, in spite of the operation of the Kuomintang authority.

Chairman Mao said this shows that the source of the crisis lies in the policy of the Kuomintang authority itself and its corrupt armies which cannot stand any attack from the enemy. The source of the crisis does not exist in the Communist party. Then if we look over the other angle. Without the Communist; without the liberated areas then the Kuomintang authority would have been destroyed by the Japanese long time ago. Our army has grown recently to size of 630,000 with more than two million people’s militia and a population of ninety million. This is a big force. If we attack the Japanese invaders, that fight in the rear, we are upholding the tail of the ox, we are protecting the great rear of the Kuomintang area. Without this they would have been wiped out by the Japanese long time ago because they cannot stand the attack of the Japanese.

Chairman Mao said in last June the Kuomintang authority proposed a plan. The essence of that plan is to disband 80% of the 18th Route Army and the New 4th Army and disband the government in the liberated areas that have been elected by the people themselves. [Illegible sentence.] Because if the 18th Route Army and the New 4th Army were disbanded in the great rear then there would be no one to uphold the ox tail and then the Japanese invader would go into the Kuomintang controlled area so we say that such proposal is only detrimental to their own cause.

Chairman Mao said that there is one point in the basis for agreement he thinks is possibly written by Mr. Chiang Kai-shek. That is our troops, our officers and soldiers after being reorganized will receive same pay and treatment as Kuomintang officers and soldiers do. I think the troops which should be reorganized are the troops which have lost the fighting power and disobey orders. These troops for example the troops which run away at first encounter with enemy; which disobey orders and which is most corrupt. So it is such kind of troops which need reorganizing. As for our troops I hope our friends will see more of our bases in enemy rear. We have scores of bases among which 17 are the bigger bases. The American military mission has already visited besides Yenan bases in Wutai Mountains and Shansi-Suiyuan military region. I hope that our American military friends will see more of these; will enlarge this mission and see all of these operation bases. I hope that you will see all of these bases. So I think and also it is the opinion of the Chinese people it is necessary to reorganize those troops which are corrupt and have no fighting powers. Then with regard to the question of the pay. The Kuomintang soldiers are hungry and poorly clothed and even so feeble that they can hardly walk. The monthly pay of the Kuomintang soldiers is $50.00 which is only enough to pay for a pack of cigarettes. In our army our troops are well fed and well clothed. So you see if our troops are to be reorganized and receive same pay as the Kuomintang troops do how can this go on. If we are to be reorganized and receive the same pay as the Kuomintang soldiers you can imagine how this can be done. They will be hungry and so feeble they will not be able to walk.

Chairman Mao said we have already talked a lot. There are many things I would like to talk about but what we have said are the essential points. So General Hurley come for his trouble such far distance for the sake of promoting unity of the Chinese nation all of us in Yenan are extremely thankful for General Hurley. But we feel it is necessary to tell General Hurley the real conditions as I have presented above.

Chairman Mao said he would like to supplement two points. Under the condition of not disrupting the anti-Japanese forces in the liberated areas and under the condition of not giving up the principle of democracy we are willing to seek an agreement with Mr. Chiang Kai-shek. It is even all right to solve a few problems first or to solve these problems gradually. We do not expect to solve all problems in one stroke. But it is impossible for us to give up the principle of democracy or to allow disruption of the anti-Japanese forces in liberated areas. In addition I am willing for a long time I have been expecting to meet Mr. Chiang Kai-shek but in the past it has been very difficult to do so. We have been growing apart instead of coming together but now under the good offices of General Hurley at suitable moment I am willing to meet Mr. Chiang Kai-shek in order to seek agreement for the purpose of seeking agreement.

General Hurley said he was glad to hear Chairman Mao say that and he appreciated it. That is one long step. If we can bring these two men together we may be able to solve a lot of these difficulties. You tell him that was a splendid representation.

General Hurley said that he realized that the forces of Chiang Kai-shek have undergone great strain in seven years of war, nearly eight, against Japan. General Hurley said he realized that they have been blockaded and have not had a lot of resources that were available to Communist troops, meaning food and clothing.

General Hurley said that it was not his province to defend the National Government. He said he did not want to defend it but he would like to say that in the last year National Government troops have won very notable battles in North Burma and the Salween, and have opened the Ledo Road as far as Myitkyina. The resources that it took to win these victories weakened the National army in other places. The arguments condemning the Chinese soldiers are those that are being made by nations who want to keep China divided.

General Hurley said he thought he should not be more anxious for a united, peaceful and strong China than the Chinese themselves. For that reason he thought we should try to have the leaders discuss the situation dispassionately among each other to see if a union of the parties in China is possible.

General Hurley said if there is no possibility of unification of Chinese forces our mission here seems futile. Before he speaks to the Generalissimo again he would like to have specifically what Chairman Mao wants the government to do because if the situation seems impossible we should not waste a lot of time about it. He did not know that the feeling was so deeply engrafted as it appeared to be this afternoon. (General Hurley explained that engrafted means that the issue seems to be so deep that it seems useless to talk about it.)

General Hurley said that the talk this afternoon is what the enemies of China have been saying; that the fighting in North Burma and the Salween are of no use; that the Chinese are corrupt and that the enemies of China wish to keep them divided. The troops and the equipment of the National government used in North Burma and on the Salween would have defeated the Japanese in the east if they had been left there but they were taken out for another purpose and weakened the Chinese forces so that the Japanese took advantage of it.

General Hurley said all the fighting in North Burma and the fighting on the Salween was necessary to reopen the Ledo Road and if that road is reopened supplies will flow in that will help materially to turn the tide against Japan. Chiang Kai-shek has agreed to a reorganization of the army. He has agreed to a reorganization of his civil government. He has said that he wants the Communists to join him in promoting the principles of Sun Yat-sen and in making possible the growth of democratic processes.

General Hurley said that if China is to be united and if she is to avoid civil strife it is essential for the leaders of China to find a basis on which they can agree. General Hurley said he thought it was asking too much to ask an outsider like him to do all of the work in fixing an agreement. General Hurley said he was doing his best but we should have some cooperation between the Chinese leaders if we really want to accomplish it.

General Hurley said that he had talked at great length to Chiang Kai-shek asking him to be reasonable and to act in the way that would be conducive to the best interests of China. General Hurley said he would like to ask the Chairman here to prepare for him a statement of what he would like to have done to enable him to cooperate with Chiang Kai-shek for the unification of China.

Chairman Mao said do you agree that there are corrupt enemies there.

General Hurley said yes.

Chairman Mao said General Hurley should not say that the views he had expressed were the views of the enemies of China. He said he had repeated views of President Roosevelt and Mr. Churchill and he had repeated views of Dr. Sun-fo and Madame Sun Yat-Sen.

Chairman Mao said in their recent interviews Mr. Roosevelt and Mr. Churchill both have expressed their dissatisfaction over the conditions in China and Madame Sun-Yat-Sen and Dr. Sun-Fo have also expressed dissatisfaction over the military-political conditions in China. So I think it is all right to repeat the views of Mr. Roosevelt. Do not say that I have repeated the words of the enemy. I think it is contrary to the fact. I have not repeated the words of the Japanese.

General Hurley said that he did not mean that Chairman Mao repeated the words of the Japanese. General Hurley did say that he repeated the words of the enemies of China.

Chairman Mao said you say these people who hope that China will unite are also talking about the shortcomings of China and the lack of democracy in China. If there is no democracy in China then there is no unity in China. There is no democracy in China. So there are two kinds of people who are both talking about the shortcoming of China. First, the kind is people who do not expect China to unite but there is another kind of people who expect China to unite but they hope that China will not unite.

Chairman Mao said what I have said does not reflect the opinions of those people who do not wish China to unite but my opinions reflect all the opinions of Chinese people who sincerely wish China to unite and overcome her shortcomings.

General Hurley said now he agreed with Chairman Mao. Awhile ago he did not agree with him because General Hurley thought he was repeating all of the arguments against China.

Chairman Mao said we must recognize the fact that China lacks two things, Unity and democracy.

General Hurley said he agreed.

Chairman Mao said we need Unity and democracy.

General Hurley said he agreed again.

General Hurley said he was glad he said these things. General Hurley understood him. General Hurley did not understand him while he was making the arguments. General Hurley said he was just hearing all the arguments against China. General Hurley said he wanted democracy and he wanted unity in China.

General Hurley said that if Chairman Mao will work with him and they can get Chiang Kai-shek to work with them, they can bring about union in China, they can clear up the corruption and they can cause the development of democratic principles in China but to do this they must all work together.

Chairman Mao said that he agreed.

General Hurley said that on the question of corruption he, of course, was not familiar with everything that is going on because he was new but a casual view of the situation indicates that up to this time there has not been a great amount of supplies come to China to cause great corruption. There is, no doubt, corruption in the Chinese administration itself but up to this time as far as he knew there has not been any great corruption in lend-lease.

General Hurley said he was happy since he understood Chairman Mao. He did not understand him at first but now he thought that what we want to do is to try to find a basis on which Chairman Mao and Chiang Kai-shek can meet because these two men know so much more about the Chinese situation than General Hurley did they could come together with that degree of sincerity and information that will enable them to find an agreement.

General Hurley said does the Chairman think he could give Gen. Hurley a statement like the one General Hurley gave him this morning indicating a basis.

Chairman Mao said that with regard to the basis of agreement which you gave him this morning he still has some news. Some points can be accepted in full.

General Hurley told the interpreter to tell the Chairman that he would be glad of the Chairman to reform it.

Chairman Mao said would you be willing to discuss these points not [now?].

General Hurley said he would be delighted.

Chairman Mao said the first point was very good.

(There then followed a lengthy discussion between all the parties on the rephrasing of the various points which after about an hour’s discussion resulted in the five points attached.⁶¹ All of this discussion about the points was carried on in an amicable discussion on [by?] all parties. There were many points raised about the phraseology of the points but they were discussed in a friendly manner and an effort on the part of all concerned to get them in best possible simple wording that would be understandable to everybody.)

59. The authorship of this memorandum is not indicated on file copy.
60. Three sentences apparently scrambled; passage might read as follows: “Chairman Mao said up to present time the policy of the Chinese Government has been a hindrance of the unity of the whole Chinese people. In other words, it has been a hindrance to this unity. We hope there will be a change.”
61. Infra.