500.A15A4/1268½
Memorandum of Trans-Atlantic Telephone Conversation36
Gibson : Hello, Mr. Castle, this is Gibson.
Castle : Hello Hugh.
Gibson : I think we better tell you about today’s meeting first. We had two sessions today, morning and afternoon, and nineteen delegations spoke on the President’s proposal. They were almost all very strong in their acceptance. The most striking speech was that by the President who accepted unconditionally to go along with it. Other countries, substantial countries like Sweden and Holland also accepted very wholeheartedly. Some other very striking speeches of the day were the speeches of the South American countries: Mexico, Colombia, and Venezuela, who not only accepted in full but were complimentary in their general comments on the attitude of the United States of America. It was one of the finest performances I have ever seen. The Venezuelan delegate made a very significant statement in which he said that they were wholeheartedly in favor of the President’s plan and intimated that their acceptance of the British Naval proposal could be reconciled to the.…37 Although it was an extremely strong sentiment throughout the day.
Castle : I hope the press will have it all in the morning.
Gibson : Yugoslavia, Rumania and Portugal made compliments on the plan but made general reservations. They were all enthusiastic. It comes out now that we have had thirty-three states come out very strongly for this plan. Six of them have not spoken, including several of the Dominions; Poland; Czechoslovakia and Spain, and as the Spanish delegate occupies an official position as Vice President he couldn’t properly speak but they have made clear that they are [Page 280] enthusiastic in their support. So that has wound up the general debate and at the end of it the President announced that probably tomorrow the draft resolution would be circulated and that a meeting would be called on Monday or Tuesday37a for its adoption. Now, the next thing is, this morning we got a telephone call that MacDonald wanted to have a talk with Davis and me at Lausanne, and with Simon, at twelve-thirty. As all the speeches in the meeting were more or less addressed to the American delegation, I felt that I had to be in my place, so Davis went alone and spent the day with MacDonald and Simon and I think he ought to tell you about that. As he is a modest violet he probably won’t tell you this—that he has done a very monumental job in clearing away misunderstanding and getting things back on the track.
Castle : Hello, Norman, don’t be a violet.
Davis : Hugh is getting quite complimentary.
Castle : Yes he is, and lets see whether he ought to be.
Davis : Well, it was very worth while. Of course they had learned by the time I got there that there were things about their action which had not had a good effect. First, MacDonald took me off alone and I told him that their proposal had had a very adverse effect and that I was afraid that in spite of all our efforts here and your efforts that they were going to get a very bad press report and he said he was quite disturbed over that, but, of course, he has been so tied up at Lausanne, and yesterday he was in bed all day and couldn’t do anything, that he really didn’t know what had happened and he wanted me to tell him. When I told him, he certainly was surprised to learn that they had submitted a rival plan and just then Simon came in and I told him that in view of the fact that he and the P.M. had both told Hugh and me that they were not going to submit a rival plan, that we were quite surprised, and MacDonald said he didn’t understand that they were going to submit a rival plan and Simon said it was not intended as such and would not have presented it that way. He was evidently embarrassed. I learned in another way afterward that what really happened was that the British Admiralty sent the naval portion of this memorandum to the Cabinet and asked the Cabinet to accept, and they just took this bodily and incorporated it in the statement and it was overlooked and the people here were as astonished as we were. After I explained that, MacDonald said, “Well, we have got to clear this thing up, but what can we do?” I said that of course I did not come to discuss navy as much as our own relations, as the navy was trivial compared to our going together step by step. They both agreed to that and then he said, “Well, what [Page 281] can we do?” Well, I said that of course one thing is to avoid the impression getting over that you would in any event or under any circumstances be striking at the heart of our navy. He said that was the last thing they would want to do; that their navy was really somewhat upset at our proposal and he said of course this was embarrassing because he had what he thought was a gentlemen’s understanding with the President, that no proposal would be submitted by either one of us for an alteration of the Naval Treaty until 1935. I said I thought there must be some misunderstanding about that, because I didn’t know anything about it, but when we came over here we had no intention of the kind and I don’t suppose anything would have been done if it had not been provoked first by the British in London. He said he understood that and it explained all those details of how it came about and gave him a different picture from what he had before. I said, “How could you expect us, with what Baldwin said to us in the presence of Simon really asking us to think it over and get our Government to think it over38—he is at least the head of the predominant political party and next to you,—not to take it seriously. We got all worked up over it. He said, “How are we going to rectify it because that is the important thing.” He said we have got to do things together and he was evidently quite disturbed. I said, “Well, the main thing is, we have first got to stand together at Geneva and let the other powers know that we are going to insist upon a substantial measure of disarmament and to particularly support the President’s plan and insist on Europe reducing its Army and the effectives.” He said, “I am quite with you on that and we will do it.” I said that we will have to make that resolution a little stronger than we had anticipated—much stronger—and that will wipe out any erroneous impression that may have resulted from this unfortunate move on your part. “Well,” he said, “I don’t know anything about that resolution, I haven’t even seen Simon’s draft, but you and Simon sit down together and work out that.” Then he said, “You ought to be able to wind up in Geneva with a bang next week because we are going to as we have had tremendous success here in Lausanne today.39 We have just finally reached a complete agreement. We may really do something remarkably for the people of the world and, after we adjourn, if you will come over to London—I have got to go back tomorrow night—we will sit down together and reach an agreement on the navy.” After that, I went off and got Allen Dulles and we sat down with Simon and went over the [Page 282] draft which Simon had prepared after the discussion he had with Hugh and me yesterday. He has done quite a good job on that and we are going to cable that to you tonight so you will get it in the morning. We are going to send the original draft, together with the suggested changes which he accepted today, but I think we better send the original to you because there have got to be many changes yet. You have got to bring in the other people, and we hope you will give us instructions as fast as you can as to its acceptability so we will know how to proceed.
Castle : All right, we will right off.
Davis : I think this resolution, Bill, if we can get it through, will render a huge success.
Castle : That is magnificent. What do the French think about it, do you know?
Davis : They are not really very greatly opposed. They want a few little things, but Simon told me he went over it with Boncour yesterday and he is quite hopeful and we will see him again in the morning and, so far as we can gather, the French Cabinet right now are in favor of accepting in whole the President’s plan. It is perfectly remarkable what is happening there with Herriot.
Castle : You better put it through quickly before Herriot falls.
Davis : The only trouble is that Boncour has got to be in Paris Tuesday and Wednesday because that is the big fight in the Chamber over the Economy program but we are going to try to get him to agree to this resolution before he goes. We are going to try to get it over Monday.
Castle : We will send an answer to that telegram to you, tomorrow. I think you have done very well. I think you are a sunflower instead of a violet.
Davis : The main thing is to get an adjournment. Neville Chamberlain and I had lunch with MacDonald and Simon and they all recognized the importance of the French being with us.
Castle : That is fine.
Davis : They are running on one cylinder in London now with six Cabinet members away, three of whom are in Geneva and three in Lausanne and it is very confusing.
Castle : Norman, they have really reached a settlement at Lausanne, haven’t they?
Davis : Yes.
Castle : We had it all in the newspapers but we wanted to be sure it was correct.
Davis : MacDonald told me that Simon and Herriot sat up until three o’clock last night and Herriot held out both hands and said, [Page 283] “This marks the end of reparations and also marks the beginning of a new era in which we recognize the interdependence of nations,” and really it was quite astonishing. Of course, I haven’t seen the wording yet, and I understand that there is some little clause in it that this agreement shall not be ratified until there is a general settlement.
Castle : I am sorry that was in but we can’t help it.
Davis : I was hoping that would not be in but I understand it is in there in an unobjectionable way.
Castle : It doesn’t mention the United States specifically?
Davis : That statement by the President …40 to get something straightened out.
Castle : I wish something of that sort could be done. I don’t know.
Davis : They have got to have political appeasement. That is the thing to lay stress on. They are going to have political appeasement and it is going to be work[ed] out here.
Castle : That is fine. That is the main thing. All right, Norman, we will answer your telegram PDQ tomorrow. Have a good Sunday. Good-by.
- Between Mr. Gibson and Mr. Davis in Geneva and Under Secretary of State Castle in Washington, July 8, 1932, 4 p.m.↩
- Apparently a break in telephone connection at this point.↩
- July 11 or 12.↩
- See telegram No. 169, May 13, 4 p.m., from the Acting Chairman of the American delegation, p. 121.↩
- For correspondence relative to the Lausanne Conference, see pp. 636 ff.↩
- Apparently a break in telephone connection at this point.↩