763.72119/6050
HD–12
Notes of a Meeting of the Heads of Delegations of the Five Great Powers Held in M. Pichon’s Room at the Quai d’Orsay, Paris, on Monday, July 21, 1919, at 3:30 p.m.
- Present
- America United States of
- Hon. H. White.
- Secretary
- Mr. L. Harrison.
- British Empire
- The Rt. Hon. A. J. Balfour, O. M., M. P.
- Secretary
- Mr. H. Norman.
- France
- M. Clemenceau.
- Secretaries
- M. Dutasta.
- M. Berthelot.
- M. de St. Quentin.
- Italy
- M. Tittoni.
- Secretary
- M. Paterno.
- Japan
- Baron Makino.
- Secretary
- M. Kawai.
- America United States of
Joint Secretariat | |
America, United States of | Capt. Chapin. |
British Empire | Capt. E. Abraham. |
France | Capt. A. Portier. |
Italy | Lieut. Zanchi. |
Interpreter—Prof. P. J. Mantoux. |
1. (a) Mr. Balfour said that before starting with the subjects on the Agenda, he would like to observe that there was not a single item on it touching Peace with Bulgaria, or indeed touching any Treaty of Peace at all. The subjects for discussion were no doubt important subjects, but the Bulgarians were to come to Paris on the following Friday. He thought it would be discreditable if the Conference were not ready to hand them a Treaty on their arrival, or shortly after it. He understood that the delay came from the re-opening of the frontier question. The Reparation and Financial Clauses were delayed in consequence. Unless the ultimate size of Bulgaria were known, it was difficult to estimate what sums she would be able to pay. Another question that was delayed was that of responsibilities, and the method of procedure to be adopted against persons who had broken the laws of war. He had enquired why Clauses similar to those inserted in the Treaties with Germany and with Austria were not adopted for the Treaty of Bulgaria, and he had been given the following explanations. [Page 234] In the other Treaties it had been stipulated that if the crime had been committed to the detriment of a Frenchman, the trial should be in a French Court, and if against an Englishman, in an English Court. If against Nationals of several countries, in a mixed Court. It appeared, however, that a Greek, Serbian, or Roumanian Court would not be regarded as offering a fair trial to a Bulgarian who had committed an offence against a Greek, Serbian or Roumanian. This might or might not be, but whatever the merits of the case, he thought the Council should insist that the work be terminated rapidly. He would suggest that M. Clemenceau should request the Commissions to expedite their labours. Question of Hastening Treaty of Peace With Bulgaria
Mr. White said that he would like to add a word to Mr. Balfour’s remarks. He wished to propose that the Council should give authority to the Commission on New States to take up the protection of minorities clauses for the Treaty with Bulgaria. He understood that the Economic Clauses and the clauses prepared by the Ports, Waterways and Railways Commission were ready.
Mr. Balfour thought that Mr. White’s information was not quite accurate. The Port question for instance, was held up, pending a decision as to whether or not Bulgaria was to have Dedeagatch.
Mr. White said that in any case the Commission on New States might get to work on Clauses for the protection of minorities.
(It was agreed that the Commission on New States be asked to prepare for the Treaty with Bulgaria Clauses for the protection of Minorities.)
Report by M. Tittoni of Result of His Conference With M. Venizelos (b) M. Tittoni said that in accordance with the request of his colleagues, he had discussed the question of frontiers between Greece and Bulgaria with M. Venizelos. The latter demanded the whole of Eastern and Western Thrace, and declined to reduce his claims in any respect. It was therefore impossible to obtain any concession and the question must be decided by the Council. Consequently he considered his mission ended as he could obtain nothing further from M. Venizelos.
(c) M. Clemenceau said that he would ask M. Tardieu to explain the situation regarding the frontiers of Bulgaria.
Explanation by M. Tradieu (M. Tardieu entered the room.)
M. Clemenceau said that the Bulgarians were expected to arrive in four days. He asked him, as President of the Commission dealing with Bulgaria, to explain to what extent the Treaty was ready for them.
M. Tardieu said that he was only President of the Commission dealing with the frontier question. In that Commission, the result obtained was total disagreement between the American and Italian Delegations on the one hand, and the British, French and Japanese [Page 235] Delegations on the other. M. Tardieu then read and explained the report contained in Appendix “A”. He said that he would like to add a few words in support of the opinions he had himself backed in the Commission. In western Thrace there was no choice between Greece and Bulgaria on ethnological grounds. The vast majority of the population was Turkish. The country, however, was not to be given to the Turks. The next most numerous population was, according to French statistics, Greek—according to other statistics, Bulgarian. It was very likely that the war had brought about alterations in the relative proportions of the population. As to the possession of a Port, the Bulgarians had a good Port on the Black Sea. The internationalisation of the Bosphorus and Dardanelles would give them free access to the open sea. As to discontent, there would undoubtedly be discontent in Bulgaria, but the Balkans were the natural home of discontent, and the only question was whether discontent should be chiefly on the side of those who had fought against us, or mainly, among the Balkan Nations who had fought for us. He would remind the Council that the impossible desire to produce union in the Balkans had wasted precious months during the war. It led to the Allied defeat at the Dardanelles, and to numerous troubles in Salonika. The mistakes made in the war should not be repeated in the Peace. As to the ultimate disposal of Eastern Thrace, he did not wish to prejudice the question. It might perhaps be most fitting to attribute it to the territory of Constantinople should the Council decide not to give it to Greece. The point was, not who got it, but who lost it.
M. Clemenceau said that the question was evidently one which the Council must solve. He was prepared to discuss it at once, but he was afraid that Mr. White would not be able, without consulting his Government, to reach a decision immediately.
Mr. White said this was so.
M. Clemenceau said that unfortunately he could not be present in the Council on the following day, and that M. Pichon also would be unavoidably detained in Brussels. He was not sure that a meeting could be held on Wednesday. He hoped that by Thursday Mr. White could obtain the views of his Government.
Mr. White said that he would send a second telegram that very evening to endeavour to obtain instructions by Thursday.
Mr. Balfour said that he regretted the delay as he regarded the matter as very urgent. He would, however, as it was necessary, assent to a postponement until Thursday.
(In view of the importance of terminating at the earliest possible moment, the preparation of the Treaty of Bulgaria, it was decided that the first item on the Agenda for Thursday, July 24th, should be the determination of the frontiers of Bulgaria.)
[Page 236]2. M. Clemenceau said that he had just received a communication from Bela Kun announcing that he proposed to attack the Roumanians, in order to enforce upon them respect for the Armistice arranged by the Powers. (Appendix “B”.) M. Clemenceau added that he did not know whether the Roumanians would be able to resist the attack. They had two divisions with which to oppose it. French troops were not far off and General Franchet d’Esperey had ordered them to fire if attacked. This news perhaps rendered the appointment of the Committee unnecessary. Appointment of an International Committee of Enquiry for Hungary
Mr. Balfour said that he considered himself authorised to nominate a General to go to Hungary. The General in question was Major-General Gorton.
M. Clemenceau said that the Generals might proceed to the front and report on what was going on there.
Mr. White said that he had, as yet, received no orders from Washington.
M. Tittoni said that, according to news from a good source, General Boehm, who had been Commander of the Hungarian Red Army, had paid a visit to Vienna. He had ceased to be Commander-in-Chief but appeared to be still in touch with Bela Kun. It would seem, from what he had said in Vienna, that an effort was being made to convert the Communist Government of Hungary into a Socialist Government. He suggested that the Allied Representatives at Vienna be asked to enquire into this report and inform the Council of the results of their enquiry.
(It was decided not to nominate the Committee of Enquiry until such time as Mr. White should have obtained the views of his Government. It was further decided that the representatives of the Allied and Associated Powers in Vienna should be asked for information regarding the visit of General Boehm to that city, and to investigate the report that he had declared that he was trying to bring about a movement in Hungary aiming at the transformation of the present Communist Government of Bela Kun into a Socialist Government. The truth and eventual importance of the alleged scheme should be verified.)
(At this point, the Military Representatives of the Supreme War Council at Versailles and General Thwaites entered the room.)
3. The Council had before it a report of the Military Representatives on the Army of Occupation in Upper Silesia. (Appendix “C”.)
Report of the Military Representatives on Army of Occupation in Upper Silesia General Belin read the conclusions of the report to the effect that 1 division of 13,000 men would be required.
Mr. Balfour asked whence this division could be obtained.
[Page 237]General Belin said that, in the first draft of the report, it had been suggested that the division should be drawn from the troops employed in the occupation of the Rhinelands. He would suggest, therefore, that Marshal Foch be asked if he could spare the troops. These troops would not be lost to Marshal Foch’s command: they would be stationed on the confines of Poland and Prussia, and, should any trouble arise requiring armed intervention, these troops, which would remain under Marshal Foch’s orders, could be utilised to co-operate with any movements made in the west.
M. Clemenceau said that Marshal Foch’s estimate for the troops of occupation was 150,000 men. He would certainly be able to spare 13,000 from this number. He entirely agreed with the judicious remarks of General Belin. The division, would, no doubt be composed of international elements.
(It was agreed that the report of the Military Representatives, together with the suggestion that the necessary troops should be furnished by the Army of Occupation on the Rhine, be approved in principle and be submitted to Marshall Foch for his views regarding the possibility of furnishing the divisions required and on its composition.)
4. The Council had before it a report of the Military Representatives. (Appendix “D”.)
General Belin read the conclusions of the Report under heading “Material Assistance.”
Report of the Military Representatives to Poland in the case of Disturbance M. Clemenceau said that the means of transport to Poland were unsatisfactory. An inter-allied train, laden with munitions on its way to Poland, had been blown up on German territory. The German Government did not appear to be involved. The train was guarded by Polish soldiers, who had apparently been neglectful. It would perhaps, therefore, be advantageous to organise transport by sea.
Mr. Balfour pointed out that the only port available was Dantzig and that Allied control over it was not very good.
M. Clemenceau said that the situation at Dantzig had improved. The turbulent elements were quieter and the German Government appeared to be resigned to losing the port. He suggested that the best plan would be to ask Marshal Foch to telegraph to General Nudant in Berlin to open negotiations with the German Government regarding transport by sea.
(It was decided that Marshal Foch be asked to initiate negotiations with the German Government for the transport of material for Poland to Dantzig.)
General Belin then read the conclusions of the report under the heading “Preventive Measures.” He explained that there were [Page 238] Allied officers serving in the Polish Army. Some of these might be nominated in advance to posts on the Delimitation Commission, which, as such, was only to be appointed 15 days after the coming into force of the Treaty. These officers might, in anticipation of their future duties, undertake to supervise the handing over of the ceded districts.
(This proposal was agreed to.
It was decided that Marshal Foch be requested to report on the possibility of appointing Allied Officers serving in the Polish Army, who would ultimately be nominated to the Delimitation Commission, to supervise the transfer of the ceded territory from Germany to Poland.)
5. M. Clemenceau said that he had received a letter from M. Venizelos regarding the appointment of a Commission of Enquiry. (See Appendix “E”) M. Venizelos desired that a Greek Commissioner be appointed. This proposal did not appear to be very acceptable. Appointment of Inter-Allied Commission of Enquiry in Asia Minor
Mr. Balfour pointed out that the Council had sent French and Italian officers to investigate the incidents at Fiume.
M. Clemenceau observed that the case was different. At Fiume the incidents had occurred as between Nationals of the Great Powers. In Asia Minor the incidents concerned Greeks and Turks. It appeared to him unreasonable to appoint a Greek to investigate a case of that kind. If his colleagues disagreed with him, however, he would not press this point of view.
M. Tittoni said that he was of the same opinion as M. Clemenceau. The investigating Commission would be the direct emanation of the Council. It should, therefore, conform to the composition of the Council. If a Greek officer were to be appointed to the Commission in Asia Minor, it might be argued on the same lines that M. Venizelos should have remained in the room, at a previous meeting, when the Council deliberated on the subject of the Greek occupation in Anatolia.
Mr. Balfour said that in the early days of the Conference, it had been laid down that Powers with limited interests should be represented when matters directly affecting them were discussed.
M. Clemenceau said that they were heard on matters regarding their interests, but the deliberations were conducted by the Five Powers.
Mr. White said that he thought the argument on both sides was strong, and that he had no very definite preferences.
Mr. Balfour asked the military experts present in the room whether they thought the collaboration of a Greek officer would be conducive to a sound finding.
General Thwaites expressed the opinion that it was undesirable to appoint a Greek officer.
[Page 239]General Bliss said that the presence of officers of all Allied Nations would give an appearance of impartiality. He did not feel strongly on the subject, but he was inclined personally to think that there should be officers from each of the Allied Nations on the Commission.
M. Clemenceau said that the presence of a Greek officer on the Commission would doubtless not matter much.
M. Tittoni objected to it as creating a precedent, which challenged the whole mechanism of the Conference.
Mr. Balfour observed that the Greek officer would go as a representative of the Powers.
(After some further discussion it was agreed that M. Venizelos be informed that he might appoint a Greek officer to follow the labours of the Commission. This officer would not, however, have a vote on the Commission and would take no part in its finding.
The following nominations were then made:—
For Italy | General Dallolio. |
For France | General Franchet d’Esperey to nominate an officer. |
For Great Britain | General Milne to nominate an officer. |
For United States of America. | An officer to be appointed after a reply from Washington had been received. |
It was decided that the Commission should begin its labours at once, and should gather as early as possible at Constantinople.)
6. (It Was agreed that nominations to this Commission should be communicated to the Secretary-General on the following day.)Appointment of a Administration in the Plebiscite Zone of Upper Silesia
7. Mr. Balfour said that the report (Appendix “F”) was to the effect that the Commission was unable to say whether the money required by General Gough was really necessary, whether the Allied Governments could furnish the money and what security existed for repayment. For all the assistance given to the Council, the Commission might as well not have reported at all. He quoted from a telegram from General Gough to the effect that the Germans were paying 15 million marks a month to support the Baltic Landwehr and the troops of Prince Lieven,1 and suggesting that to deliver Latvia and Russia from financial obligation to Germany, the Germans be ordered to continue payment into a British bank to the account of the Ulmannis2 Government [Page 240] as a portion of the reparation due from Germany. Mr. Balfour added that it was surprising that the Germans should be able to pay such a sum while all the Entente Powers to-gether could not afford half a million a month. Report of Financial Commission Regarding the Financial Assistance to the Baltic States
M. Clemenceau said that he thought the matter could not be settled at that meeting.
(The question was therefore postponed.)
8. M. Tardieu said that, as he had previously explained, there was a Commission to supervise the execution of the Territorial and Political Clauses of the Treaty, and another to supervise the execution of the Reparation and Financial Clauses. There were, however, two other important chapters in the Treaty requiring similar Commissions, namely, the Economic and Colonial. He pointed out that the existing Committees could not perform this work He, therefore, proposed that a Committee be appointed to supervise the execution of these Clauses of the Treaty. Appointment of Commissions To Supervise Execution of Economic and colonial Clauses of Treaty With Germany
Baron Makino said that, as regards the Colonial Clauses, the most important of these were covered by the work of the Reparation Commission, and the remainder by the Committee dealing with Mandates. The work of these two bodies appeared to cover the main part of the Articles dealing with German colonies. If anything were left over, there might be a reason for appointing a new Commission, and he would be glad to know what remained over.
M. Tardieu said that he agreed. The Reparation Commission could, he thought, in a few hours deal with all questions which the Committee on Mandates left untouched. All he wished was that some body should be required to do the necessary work on behalf of the Council.
Baron Makino suggested that the Committee on Mandates should be asked to make a report.
(After some further discussion, the two following resolutions were then adopted:—
- 1.
- That the supervision of the execution of the Economic Clauses of the Treaty with Germany should be entrusted to the Economic Commission. The Commission was asked to report to the Council at an early date.
- 2.
- That the supervision of the execution of the Colonial Clauses of the Treaty with Germany should be entrusted to the Mandates Committee. The Committee was asked to report to the Council at an early date.)
9. M. Tardieu said that he had just seen a letter which had not been communicated to the Commission dealing with the question of Klagenfurt. (Appendix “G”.)The Evacuation of Klagenfurt
M. Tittoni observed that the question relating to war material was totally different from that of the Armistice line.
[Page 241]M. Tardieu said that the Council had required a line to be drawn behind which the two belligerent parties could withdraw. It had then been thought right that this line should, as nearly as possible, be the boundary between the plebiscite areas. This had been done. An argument was now raised by the Yugo-Slavs against withdrawing behind the line on the plea that there was a certain stock of arms and munitions captured by them from the Austrians which they were entitled to remove. He thought this excuse for not withdrawing should not be tolerated.
Mr. Balfour said that he had imagined that it had been arranged that the Serbs should retire leaving behind them a small guard under Allied officers to watch those stores, to which it appeared they had a legitimate title. There appeared to be no serious objection to the execution of this plan. The stores belonged to the Serbs and should they have to abandon them they would have a real grievance.
M. Tittoni said that the matter was not as clear to him as it seemed to be to Mr. Balfour. Mr. Balfour seemed convinced that these stores belonged to the Serbs. The Serbs had occupied the territory in which these stores were after the armistice. They had no right, therefore, to claim as war booty material taken after the armistice. These stores represented a security for the reparation due from Austria. In it the Serbs were entitled not to the whole, but to one-fifth. The whole question should therefore be handed over to the Reparation Commission. If all the armaments in Austria were bartered away, there would finally remain nothing in the country to pay reparation. Further, he thought the presence of Serbian troops, even in small numbers, was incompatible with the due observance of the plebiscite. As it was, the inhabitants complained that the Serbians threatened them. The same plan therefore should be adopted in this territory as was adopted in the areas in dispute between Germans and Poles. A police force was required, but not one representing either claimant.
Mr. Balfour said that M. Tittoni’s argument was a strong one, but it could hardly apply to a very small section of Serbian troops posted to guard a building. This he thought was all that the proposed force amounted to. He would like to ask at what date the plebiscite was to take place.
M. Tardieu said that M. Tittoni’s observation might have force at the time when the plebiscite was to occur, but this was to be from three to six months after the coming into force of the Treaty. The Treaty had not yet been signed.
Mr. Balfour said that long before this the munitions would have been removed, and the Serbian guard would have gone with them.
M. Tardieu said that he would suggest a slight modification of Mr. Balfour’s proposal, namely, that instead of a Serbian guard, the [Page 242] Allied generals in the area be asked to take charge of the stores, and to give the Serbians a receipt.
(The following Resolution was then adopted:—
“It was decided that the troops of the Serbs, Croats, and Slovenes be required to evacuate the whole of zone “B” in the Klagenfurt Basin, in conformity with the boundary already communicated to them. The arms and stores claimed by them will be handed over for custody to the Allied Generals, who will furnish a receipt for the same.”)
10. M. Clemenceau said that there was a complaint communicated by M. Paderewski that the Germans were removing from Dantzig all that was necessary for the working of the factories. The complaint emanated from a Committee of the working population of Dantzig. (See Appendix “H”.)Removal of Material From Danzing by Germans
M. Clemenceau proposed that Marshal Foch be asked to deal with the question.
(It was decided to refer the document communicated by M. Paderewski regarding German action in Danzig to Marshal Foch for suitable action.)
(The Meeting then adjourned.)
Villa Majestic, Paris, July 21, 1919.
[Page 251] [Page 252]- Prince Anatole Lieven, a Bait, in command of the Russian detachment of volunteers fighting the Bolsheviks in the Baltic regions.↩
- Karlis Ulmannis, Latvian Prime Minister and Minister of Agriculture and Supplies.↩
- Translation from the French supplied by the editors.↩
- FM–29, minute 4, p. 14.↩
- British and Foreign State Papers, vol. cix, p. 879.↩
- Translation from the French supplied by the editors.↩
- Translation from the French supplied by the editors.↩
- Translation from the French supplied by the editors.↩
- HD–2, minute 5, p. 48.↩
- Translation from the French supplied by the editors.↩
- French representative, Inter-Allied Military Commission at Klagenfurt.↩